DC Universe

[EricJ]

We always knew that this as going to get middling reviews, but it seems a shame that this momentous occasion isn't going to reflect decades of comic book history too well, and that the film sounds too packed with wanting to kickstart the Justice League series rather than setting up the characters first. We kind of knew that too, but from what I've heard of how it is done in BVS, it does sound like it's all a both thrown together.

All of which above, point for point, could exactly be said about Avengers: Age of Ultron--Which also had a hyuuuge opening and fell fast, after fans got a look at the darn thing and didn't get the movie they'd been imagining for six months.
Except that that one was following on at least one, and several, established audience hits, while BvS is Warner trying to TELL us, by telling themselves, how much we loved Man of Steel, because it would fit their corporate-icon model if we did...But what if we didn't?

[Dan]

Wouldn't say it's point for point exactly like AOU. AOU, while didn't duplicate the box office numbers of the first film, was nonetheless the second highest grossing of the all the MCU films (both domestic and world-wide), and was still a well praised film (75% Rotten Tomatoes score, Graded A by CinemaScore).

BvS is not going to receive any help from the critics, it'll look to hang at around 38% on Rotten Tomatoes, and public perception was already sketchy from the start with the lack of a solid foundation (Man of Steel is not enough), overloading the roster beyond the necessary, the lack of "fun" as Ben pointed out, and expectations so high that even a studio executive admitted the film would be a failure if it doesn't gross a billion world-wide.

[Ben]

I don't think you can really compare a sequel (in this case A:AOU, which arguably could be said to not just be second in the Avengers team-ups but actually film eleven or twelve in the MCU series) to a film that, while technically a sequel to MOS, is actually attempting to use itself to launch an almost fully-formed movie universe from the get-go as opposed to building it up.

I *still* say that they should have piggy-backed on Nolan's Batman films as the start of the rise of the superheroes in a "realistic" world, followed by Man Of Steel (who arrived arguably in the Nolan-verse, remember) and then a stand-along MOS sequel (or at least a Batman/Superman film that was just that, without Wonder Woman or any League business), followed by Bats/Supes as is now, and then the Justice League. From *that* they could have then launched the spin-offs, origins and stand-alones...but this way it's all shoved at us too fast, too greedily and too chaotically.

As you both say, the MCU followed on several audience hits, while MOS was not enough, really, to launch the League in the next swoop. WB was slow to run with this and now they're playing catch-up. And in taking the complete opposite step of going too dark and serious with their approach, they're not going to be the audience pleases that Disney and Marvel enjoy. As has kind of been said here before: Marvel knows it's audience and part of that is why Disney got involved, but WB has never really known what DC is or how to handle it. DC arguably have the best and more iconic characters, but they haven't used them in the right way since the late 1980s...!

[EricJ]

Wouldn't say it's point for point exactly like AOU. AOU, while didn't duplicate the box office numbers of the first film, was nonetheless the second highest grossing of the all the MCU films (both domestic and world-wide), and was still a well praised film (75% Rotten Tomatoes score, Graded A by CinemaScore).

Well, was comparing "Audiences were unhappily surprised to find out it spent 70% of the movie's time trying to drearily psychoanalyze the characters, instead of sending them into battle, and squeezed in some last minute battle scenes that seemed pointless and didn't fit with the overall tone", and "Didn't really seem to have its own purpose in existing, except to set up characters for the next linked-universe films rather than doing anything meaningful with the one they had".
As such, we just came out of AoU waiting for Civil War and the Black Panther movie, and most fans were looking to BvS just to "audition" the Wonder Woman and Justice League movies, which also seemed to get little more than a cameo advertisement.

but WB has never really known what DC is or how to handle it. DC arguably have the best and more iconic characters, but they haven't used them in the right way since the late 1980s...!

More specifically, they're still crippled by their Cartoon Network issues, and can't 100% commit themselves to DC without worrying that we'll all consider it a 70's-kitsch relic, associate anything Justice League related with Superfriends, and start giggling over Wonder Twins, Wendy & Marvin and Apache Chief jokes.

So they either have to
A) hammer us with dark gritty Deconstructionist views that will shock us into re-examining our beloved icons in a new way for a complex world (ie. make Batman depressing, Superman a jerk, and turn everything into post-9/11 metaphors), or
B) kiss up to their neurotic imaginary "kitsch" audience and play every other DC cartoon on CN for backhanded-snigger value, like Teen Titans Go. (Yeah, yeah, I know, you liked Batman: Brave & Bold...Want a movie of it?)

To love others, one must first love one's self, and Warner has too many self-inflicted neurotic inferiority complexes to love itself or DC with any degree of marketable confidence the way Disney/Marvel can.

[Ben]

Superman doesn't need any help being a jerk. He has Cavill for that...

[Ben]

So this made me laugh: https://www.instagram.com/p/BDBzCEGJhx4/

Gosh, the reviews for BVS don't get any better, do they? And they're all pretty much saying the same thing, so they can't all be wrong.

I may have a big movie night next week and catch Zootopia/tropolis and BVS together, since the times work out. I was leaning towards seeing the Disney film first, but because they're saving their best screen for the BVS showings in the evening I can catch both screenings on the same day. Bit of a shame for Zootopia, which won't get the full number of shows because of BVS (and this will happen around the country here), and we also have holdovers Kung Fu Panda 3 and, believe it or not, The Peanuts Movie. Also interesting is that a lot of places aren't bothering with 3D screenings for either Zoo or BVS...

[EricJ]

And--until it gets its own thread--before BvS came out, it was unnecessary...Now, it seems like perfect palate-cleansing parody:


(Although the tag at the end suggests that Warner got a little too overconfident after our united mass fan-tantrum in support of the Lego Movie, thinks Warner Animation is back in the game, and that we'll all go crazy over Storks. Well, now, I wouldn't say that...)

[Dacey]

Who won?

Wonder Woman won.

That is all.

I may have a big movie night next week and catch Zootopia/tropolis and BVS together, since the times work out. I was leaning towards seeing the Disney film first, but because they're saving their best screen for the BVS showings in the evening I can catch both screenings on the same day

If you can only do one, do Zootopia.

And this comes from someone who loved Man of Steel, by the way.

[Dan]

Didn't think it was bad as I thought it could've been. But it did leave me wishing they went another way with the narrative.

Audience members being goofy after the movie:
"Wait a minute! This ain't Captain America!"

[Ben]

Ouch!

[droosan]

I, for one, would rather see ..



(with SBFFs pronounced phonetically, like Wonder Girl does: "süh-bœffs")


This actually kinda happened, on what little there was of the show.

[EricJ]

or
B) kiss up to their neurotic imaginary "kitsch" audience and play every other DC cartoon on CN for backhanded-snigger value, like Teen Titans Go. (Yeah, yeah, I know, you liked Batman: Brave & Bold...Want a movie of it?)

This actually kinda happened, on what little there was of the show.

....Yyyyyeah. Basically. THAT kinda thing.

[droosan]

Well .. at least the SBFF version is fun. That definitely seems to be missing from Warner's new live-action super-hero films.

The 'fun' is also there in the older films and comics. But fun is apparently not allowed, anymore.

.. surely, there could at least be a happy medium for these movies which falls somewhere between 'grim & gritty' and 'campy spoof'. Even WB's current TV series seem to have found one.

[Ben]

Not sure if those outside the UK will be able to listen (the downloads are UK only though this is a catch-up stream) but I just heard an excellent documentary on the music of Superman and Batman on screen that's available on the BBC Radio 3 webpage. It'll be up for 29 days as of March 26.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b074z3my

From the excellent Sound Of Cinema series, it basically runs through the major themes for each character along with a couple of lesser known or heard music, plus interesting commentary on the films and composers. There's also a badass big orchestral version of Neal Hefti's Batman theme around the 16 minute mark that I hadn't heard before but love!

[James]

What a mess that was. I am seriously considering being done with the DCEU unless Snyder is removed.