DC Universe

Post by **ShyViolet** » June 21st, 2013, 9:35 am

Despite having thoroughly enjoyed the film, I basically agreee with most of what's been said here, although I do want to add that despite the dark tone it was TONS more optimistic than the dour Returns. At least MoS holds with the idea that we not only NEED but deserve a hero. Yes, it's a post 9/11 world, but there IS hope, despite everything. This is the exact opposite of what Returns' message was.

Post by **Randall** » June 21st, 2013, 12:14 pm

Zach said he needed to show WHY Superman eventually got a rule against killing, figuring he had to kill first to develop an aversion to it. It's "the origin of why he never kills."

HUH? I never killed anyone, and I already have an aversion to it. Just bizarre thinking on Snyder's part.

Post by **Randall** » June 22nd, 2013, 9:49 am

A nice, balanced view of the film:
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/ ... eaderPanel

Post by **Dacey** » June 22nd, 2013, 11:51 am

But Superman does kill, which is why I'm baffled--BAFFLED--by why the ending of MoS has caused so much "controversy."

As was pointed out in the link I posted earlier, Superman killed Zod in Superman II under much different circumstances. Zod was helpless because Superman had tricked him into getting rid of his powers, but instead of taking him to jail, the Supes instead chooses to break his arm and send Zod tumbling to his doom. Is he haunted by this? No. He's smiling and cracking wise while doing so, and even gets Lois Lane to join in (and, while we're at it, also leaves Lex Luthor to freeze to death for all he knows). And this is NOT to say I have a problem with the ending of Superman II (well, not that part of the ending...you all know what I'm talking about). But in terms of the whole "Superman shouldn't kill" thing, Man of Steel is arguably much more sensitive on the matter.

He tries to get Zod to stop. Zod says he will never stop, and is about to kill innocent people. Superman at this point knew that Zod had gone insane with rage, which is when he knew he had to kill him. And he HATES doing it, which, again, is much different than how Supes killing is approached in Superman II, or even some episodes of Superman: The Animated Series and Justice League (on at least two occassions, he has every intention of killing Darksied, and even seems to get some pleasure out of doing so).

And yet the internet acts like this is something Superman has never done before, to the point where a comic book writer is able to behave horribly in a movie theater and yet have his opinion taken seriously by some people. It's silly. And I'm not saying I don't understand why a lot of people aren't loving the film more--Ben and Randall certainly gave their reasons--, but how I'm supposed to believe from Rotten Tomatoes that World War Z is a "better movie" than this is beyond me. Heck, even Superman Returns is certified "Fresh" there with 75%, even though MoS has many of the aspects they were complaining were missing from that film.

And speaking of Returns, Singer recently boasted in an interview with EW that he was "proud to have ended the Donner era." Thought Ben might want to know that.

Post by **ShyViolet** » June 22nd, 2013, 1:18 pm

I think Batman 89 caused a similar controversy when Batman may or may not have dropped Jack Napier into the vat of chemicals. It's quite ambiguous about whether it was intentional or not, but the same issue about Batman not killing came up too.

I actually wasn't that bothered by MoS's nding either, I mean, he had no choice! Weird how not as many people in 89 brought up what Bats may have possibly done to the Joker (as well as at the end when he more or less seals his death by attaching the block of stone to his leg).

Post by **Randall** » June 22nd, 2013, 1:27 pm

In the comics, it's been well established in some stories that Superman doesn't kill. Of course he famously (and controversally) did kill Zod and two other Zoners in the 1980s comics, so there is precedent. But other stories have focused of his belief in the sanctity of life. You're right, though--- lots of precedent for him "doing what needed to be done."

It does amaze me a little me that ANYONE could prefer Superman Returns over Man of Steel. I think Man of Steel will continue to grow on me over time (I'm already looknig forward to seeing it again), while Returns has only lessened in my eyes over the years.

Post by **Randall** » June 22nd, 2013, 1:33 pm

So, you've gotta see this....

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... -that-guy/

Post by **ShyViolet** » June 22nd, 2013, 1:57 pm

Thanks Randall! LOL!!

Post by **Dacey** » June 22nd, 2013, 4:34 pm

What...the...heck?? Are those real?

Post by **Ben** » June 22nd, 2013, 7:26 pm

Yeah, they're real.

BTW, I had no probs with Supes killing Zod. Zod knew what he was doing so he could die in the honor of battle.

And the Donner era ended half way through shooting Superman II. It's history. What Singer did was worse than Lester!

GeorgeC · Post by **GeorgeC** » June 23rd, 2013, 5:14 am

Randall wrote:Zach said he needed to show WHY Superman eventually got a rule against killing, figuring he had to kill first to develop an aversion to it. It's "the origin of why he never kills."

HUH? I never killed anyone, and I already have an aversion to it. Just bizarre thinking on Snyder's part.

Hello? It's Hollyweird.
They're on a different planet; they don't think like normal human beings! It all has to be justified someway and they feel like they have to show everything (because they think the audience is that dumb -- or at least as dumb as they are).
You're being way too nice here.

Utterly joyless year so far. Iron Man 3 was fine, the latest Star Trek film was the biggest joke in a long while for that series -- it managed to make Insurrection, Nemesis, and Star Trek: The Motion Picture look inviting now. Heck, Star Trek V has less jumping the shark moments than the newest film!

... and now we have a dark, dismal Superman with utterly forgettable music and unimaginative art direction. And CGI FX that make you pine for the special flying projection photography used in the Reeve Superman movies.

Unlike Ben, I didn't care for the Krypton scenes nor did I think all the violence and shaky cam was necessary, either. Why directors today are so love in shaky cam, I don't know, but it's annoying and distracting to me... Just as bad as the overuse of lens flare. Wish they would let scenes play out more naturally and stay away from rapid music video editing, too. There are more than a few editors and directors who think they're editors whose hands should be kept away from film cutting equipment and film splicers.

They just don't get it... and too many people that have seen this film are making excuses for what most of us know is a crappy film. Beyond the whole "Is it a good Superman film?" question, it's just not that good a film.

IF I had any doubts about the bad taste of the huge bulk of moviegoers AND people still left reading superhero comics, this film dispelled them. You all that actually like this stuff have no taste and NO IDEA what a superhero is let alone a good story using the classic versions of these characters -- and unfortunately neither do the current writers or editors at DC Comics.

As a superhero film --- wow... I'd like to say that this was unique and that I think I've seen what has to be one of the biggest wastes of money but it has to join a line of other movies that are sequels or remakes, too. It's sad to say it's not the exception here nor the end of a suicidal trend in movies. The last couple of years have been full of this and that's why most of us over 30 stay away from new movies or stay home and save money with >ahem< downloads and the eventual Blu ray/DVD rentals from the friendly (and very cheap) rental boxes. Why pay to get fleeced? Especially if you have a young family and 2 or more kids.

[I unfortunately DO think it will take a number of $150-$250million bombs in a row that can't be written off as losses for corporate taxes (or hidden so "cleverly" with the cash laundry) before there are changes. That is the first thing I've agreed on with Mssrs. Lucas and Spielberg in a long time -- and they know about costs and appreciate how out-of-control the movie machine is now. They've helped facilitate along the way with many of their projects, too. The Internet has made in-roads to a point and there are far less expensive, quality films being made overseas that are actually fun to watch but entertainment is still overly driven by Hollywood at this point. Hollywood won't die out completely -- we can only hope it shrinks to the point that it becomes a lot less relevant and necessary to funding filmmaking and dictating what stories get told and who gets hired to act -- but I can see they're headed towards the same fate as the music industry because of sheer greed[/u] and stupidity. May take a decade or two longer but they will join the movie industry in the trash compactor sooner or later.]

Save your money, folks. For good Superman that measures up to the best of the original source material, watch the animated stuff produced since 1996, the old Fleischer animated shorts, Superboy, The Adventures of Superman, and the first two Christopher Reeve films. IF you like classic dramatic radio programs, the 1940s "The Adventures of Superman" series is pretty darn good, too.
I'd almost recommend Superman Returns, too -- surprise, surprise Bryan Singer actually made a film that was better than what followed it(!) -- but it's still a bit creepy for my tastes (Superman the absent daddy/ex-girlfriend stalker) and overly faithful to the best two live-action Superman films, the Donner/Reeve movies. The spirit and intentions of this film are still better than the Snyder/Goyer film in theaters for sure.

I don't know what Zac Snyder thinks is a superhero but this isn't it... David Goyer proved to me once and for all that he can't write a script that appeals to me and that he WILL throw out what makes these characters special if he believes a) it will appeal to a broader audience and b) "his way" is better than what the creators brought for... What a prat. (Never did like his comic books, either.) I have no respect for people who operate that way with somebody else's creations. That's why I have so much respect for the guys working on the animated DC projects. They get it... They treat the characters like loved offspring.

You guys can have the Nolan/Goyer stuff... They're ashamed of these characters and unfortunately are doing their best to make them fit into whatever little world they'd rather play in. Worst choices to shepherd the DC characters. I wouldn't look forward to what they'll do with Justice League or the next Superman movie. Marvel got very lucky and hired the right directors and screenwriters for its projects... and at least half of those films are a pleasure to watch and don't drown in self-doubt and emotional paralysis. Why they can't do better animated shows and movies I don't know... except for my suspicions that Disney execs are once again getting involved in far too many creative decisions and bulloxing animation projects with overbearing directives and really stupid editorial moves to "appeal more to the kiddies!"... like they haven't been doing that for nearly a quarter-center now!

It's like Marvel and DC projects would be much better if they could swap out the teams doing the best jobs on specific projects; DC animation to work on Marvel animation, Marvel live-action on DC live-action. Won't happen, folks, unless the money and promises of more work opportunities and advancement are strong enough for more than just a few writers and artists. Dini went over to Marvel to work on Ultimate Spider-Man but I have my doubts much if any of his wit is showing through on that show... I couldn't bear to watch more than 2-3 minutes of that bile before I had to switch the cable channel. Yeah, kids programming goes through its idiot cycles and undertows as well as creative peaks... We're definitely in a "Dick and Jane"/"Barney" era for kids programming as opposed to Dr. Seuss/Sid & Marty Kroft era. (See? There was actual creativity AND challenges to kids' intellects in early 1970s TV programming.) I pity the kids whose parents poison them with the current mind mush...

Post by **Dacey** » June 23rd, 2013, 12:51 pm

Anybody who can honestly tell me the Disney-funded, overseen Ultimate Spider-Man is better than the Sony-produced Spectacular Spider-Man was needs to get an MRI. You have a brain tumor in that case...

That's really a bit much, don't you think?

I mean...it's fine if you don't like this stuff (even though I don't see why you felt the need to bring up your feelings about Star Trek again here), but there's no need to directly insult those of us who do. And, yes, I actually do like to think I have an idea of what makes a good superhero and story, but since I have "no taste," I guess I don't know what I'm talking about.

Also, the Marvel cartoons have NEVER been as good as the DC ones. Remember the first season of the 90s Fantastic Four show? Now, granted, it got a lot better during its second season, but even then it still didn't measure up to Batman. And this was all long, long before the Disney purchase of Marvel.

At the end of the day, you can rant all you like, but these movies are making money, and people overall seem to be enjoying them. And if you wish for Hollywood to "die" like you seem to want it to, then maybe you should stop supporting it.

(And for what it's worth, I'm actually very thankful I didn't grow up in the Sid and Marty era. Just looking at images from those shows as a kid was enough to more than freak me out)

GeorgeC · Post by **GeorgeC** » June 23rd, 2013, 10:37 pm

YES, you need to be yelled at to wake the hell up!

Some of you are way too easy to please or I just don't know what the hell it is with you --!

I don't think entertainment, pop culture, the state of culture in general whether we're talking politics, entertainment, life, etc. would be so bad if people weren't so damn apathetic and SO EASY to please.

I'm sorry if you feel insulted, Dacey, but frankly I don't care anymore...
I have seen culture at all levels degenerate precipitously the past thirty years. It's beyond pathetic and things will NOT get better until a lot more people get mad and demand better otherwise we're all going to continue to be fed crap for scraps and ALL situations in life WILL continue to degenerate.

All the stupid sequels, Disney having become such a joke since the mid-1990s at the latest, and all this cow-towing by the majority of entertainment websites because they suckle at the nipple of the PR departments of said-studios -- you have to use your brain to sort through things instead of being so eagerly led by the nose or following everybody else like a good little soldier.

I can't take the majority of reviews posted anywhere because everything is "great" or "fantastic" or good just like the last film. It's not any better with any other form of entertainment, either. It's sad... it's IMPOSSIBLE that everything's that good. When something good does come along, it often gets pilloried or buried deep. Celebrate the mediocrity! Forget about any standard of quality!

Someone can make suggestions on good films and books from the past but I just know the majority of you will never bother to follow through on your own and actually investigate things independently because you're too lazy and waiting for the damn remake or someone else to summarize things for you in a neat one-page document... The sad fact is that a bunch of you don't even know how to research things let alone write a research paper because your schools never bothered to teach how to do things on your own, you NEVER bothered to learn on your own outside of school -- which is where you do the REAL learning in society -- because you were busy screwing around and/or getting stoned/drunk on the weekends, you never QUESTION authority whether it's someone you trust OR the friggin' politicians you SHOULD question (besides they're the politically correct "godfathers" your schools told you saved the nation in the 20th century and you ALWAYS trust what the schools tell you to even when they're exposed as the biggest propagandists in the country outside the White House press secretary), and so forth. You just don't know how to reason things out on your own because you're used to someone telling you how to do things or what's appropriate to think! You accept way too much easily of what's given to you...

Get mad at me all you want but you'll completely miss the points I'm trying to make here... and continue to be okay with the state of things as they are.

We'll continue to get shit level of entertainment among other things because we're "okay with good enough."

Pathetic.

And THAT is why I have stayed away from this site for months on end and why I WON'T become a contributor any time soon if ever... I will NEVER be just a good soldier. I'm not the type of person to jump over a cliff just because it seems like the "fun thing to do" OR because "everyone else is else doing it."

Post by **Randall** » June 23rd, 2013, 11:07 pm

... and then some people are nearly impossible to please. It's one thing to not like something, but it's quite another to insist that it is 100% crap just because it didn't suit you. And another again to insult those who feel differently. You need to settle down and knock it off. You've made some very good points in your posts, more than a few of which I agree with; but your personal attacks suggest that you've finally gone off the deep end here, and maybe past the point of no return.

Apparently, we're only allowed to like "Classic" Superman, which includes George-approved versions (never mind that each version is unique in itself). The actual original Superman (in print) was a social crusader who couldn't fly or see through walls, but apparently that's besides the point. There have been countless versions in print and film, and they each have their good and bad points. Including Man of Steel.

Sigh.

George is right. He'll never be a contributor to this site. We like people to be fair-minded and polite. Most of us even try to enjoy what we watch rather than spit on it and insult anyone who dares to enjoy it without his permission. I think a few of us on both the main site and the Forum make both good and bad points about the things we write about. That's not "towing the company line," it's showing intelligence. For all the ranting about poor schooling, nothing is more telling than a close-minded shouter who insists that only his POV is correct.

George, feel free to stay away if you keep up with this attitude.

Post by **Ben** » June 24th, 2013, 12:15 pm

Well there was one word in that rant that went right over the line, for sure...

I'm sad to see this coming from George, who has always been one of our most vocal posters, but always with a balanced viewpoint or at least a reasoning for his. But here I think you are attacking everything because it's easy to attack everything and not hunt out the good stuff and help promote it.

I think you'll see from my reviews that I don't "love" everything. When something is bad, I say so. I actually agree that pop culture is on an irrevocable slide into mediocrity but we have brought this upon ourselves by making those films and TV series hits and not supporting more quality stuff.

Sadly, human beings have become lazy, and too easy to please. I have a bunch of friends who tell me this or that was "okay" or was "alright" because their quality level has dropped and they have no threshold. I hear you in many critics feeding off the PR machines but we've never done that here and I think all our reviews, even the positive ones, also suggest weak points.

It's also about personal opinion, and there's a difference between a fan's approach and what a critic - who is hopefully a little more versed in wider things - might make of things, plus then, of course, there is popular and the public opinion, often two different things. Since we're all individuals we can't all be expected to fall under one or even all of those kinds of headings, hence why people write what they write.

As a fan of Trek that never got into it on the level of a huge geek who knows the Enterprise inside and out, I could appreciate the new film as a slice of audience-friendly entertainment. I do know the Original Series and movies fairly well, and I watched most of TNG and DS9, though only sporadically bits of Voyager, so could relate to the movie and thought they did a great job of reviving things so that Trek wouldn't just keep getting the tired Berman treatment and eventually die.

On the flipside with Superman, I don't think anyone here (or anywhere?) is saying the movie is a triumph of storytelling, effects or representation of Superman lore. Even the ones that outright liked it have problems with it. I have faith that the next one will be more "Superman" and less "Man Of Steel", and I certainly don't think the filmmakers even achieved what they set out to do, but even I can see how it works as a movie that is obviously playing well to the audiences of today. And whatever you think of the film, no-one can deny it hasn't been made well.

So...you can either sit out the next 40-70 years of pop culture, or you can enjoy what little of it you can, or try to make a difference by championing the lesser-known, more unique and successful things out there that are getting swamped by such things as MOS. But please don't just keep grousing on about the same old things. You're starting to sound like a grumpy old man and leaning towards being more of one of our more usual kooks than being the guy that used to make the pointed but intelligent posts of the past.

Seems pop culture is not the only thing to have lost its way...?

DC Universe

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