Favorite Menken/Ashman musical score?

Post by **ShyViolet** » July 7th, 2005, 11:24 am

"Part of Your World" is also a lot like that song "Somewhere that's Green" from Little Shop of Horrors--Ashman/Menken too!!

That's where Audrey sings about how she would like to have a better life and one day be married to Seymore.

That film has an awesome score too! Love that Dentist song!

Post by **Ben** » July 7th, 2005, 11:49 am

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Little Shop.

Most awesome day ever in a studio was going to the set with my Dad - Skid Row was a HUGE set that took up the entire stage.

Also glad I grabbed the ORIGINAL DVD with the 22 minute alternate ending!

From the Did You Know column:

Ashman and Menken were very aware that Part Of Your World was like Somewhere That's Green, and the joke working title for the song was indeed "Somewhere That's Dry"!

Post by **AniMan** » July 7th, 2005, 12:46 pm

Ben wrote:Yeah, I agree about Under The Sea. It's a great song, but kills the film dead

Huh?? "Kills the film dead"? Umm.. isn't that a bit exaggerated? It actually fit in seamlessly with the story as Sebatian is trying to convince Ariel of how good life is right where she is. Saying it "kills the film dead"
implies that the film failed somehow. We all know that it is without question a Disney classic.

Post by **AniMan** » July 7th, 2005, 12:57 pm

ShyViolet wrote:"Part of Your World" is also a lot like that song "Somewhere that's Green" from Little Shop of Horrors--Ashman/Menken too!!

That's where Audrey sings about how she would like to have a better life and one day be married to Seymore.

That film has an awesome score too! Love that Dentist song!

Hey! That's my favorite live-action musical of all! LOVE IT! Whenever it's on I can't help but to watch it. The songs are soooo good. Y'know, I never knew that Ashman and Menken did the music/songs until you said it. Wow, no wonder I love it so much. "Suddenly Seymour" actually gives me goosebumps, no kiddin'. And yeah, "Somewhere that's Green" is an incredibly beautiful song. Never realized how much it's like "Part of Your World". Thanks for that bit of trivia!

Post by **ShyViolet** » July 7th, 2005, 1:51 pm

From the Did You Know column:

Ashman and Menken were very aware that Part Of Your World was like Somewhere That's Green, and the joke working title for the song was indeed "Somewhere That's Dry"!

OMG that's hilarious!

BTW if you think about it, Ariel wouldn't just need legs to live on land, but lungs, too, assuming she has gills to breathe underwater. Unless she has both or something.

(OK, that was random.)

Also glad I grabbed the ORIGINAL DVD with the 22 minute alternate ending!

What was it?? Is it available now?

Huh?? "Kills the film dead"? Umm.. isn't that a bit exaggerated? It actually fit in seamlessly with the story as Sebatian is trying to convince Ariel of how good life is right where she is.

Yeah, but, in the end Ariel decides to leave her family and the ocean to live with Eric, so IMO it doesn't really fit into the story other than "O.K., let's have a nice song here." I mean, Ariel sings this beautiful song about how much she wants to live on the surface, it's obvious that she's in love with this human, and she risks everything to be with him. "Under the Sea" kind of negates all that, it doesn't feel really genuine. What's it about? Uh....how SEBASTION and the other fish think the sea is great, not Ariel. She gets pushed to the background, and doesn't have anything to do during that whole sequence except stand around (uh, I mean swim around) looking awed (even though she's lived in the ocean her whole life!). That's like an early version of "Be Our Guest" where the household items sing to Belle. But there the song truly serves a purpose, because it introduces us to this enchanted magical castle that seemed so scary before, cements the bond between Belle and the enchanted objects, and pulls us deeper into the story. (Originally, they sang to Maurice, and it was called: "He's Our Guest". Then they realized that if they did it that way, the song didn't really serve much of a purpose. That's the main problem with "Under the Sea.")

I think that's one of the reasons that the original BATB didn't include "Human Again." It's a nice song, but takes the focus off Belle and the Beast and doesn't do much to advance the story. (I think it was really misdirected to add it in. Ditto for "Morning Report"!)

Maybe if the Little Mermaid had a some more tension in the 3rd act, like Prince Eric choosing to marry someone else out of HIS OWN FREE WILL (like the story goes) and Ariel's life truly hanging in the balance (not just being Ursala's slave) Ariel could have reflected on the choice she made, how she left her whole family and friends, everything she knows. She could have sang a song on how beautiful the ocean really is to her, how much she misses it. That would have advanced the story somewhat, but would probably have been too sad for a Disney film.

Hey! That's my favorite live-action musical of all! LOVE IT! Whenever it's on I can't help but to watch it. The songs are soooo good. Y'know, I never knew that Ashman and Menken did the music/songs until you said it. Wow, no wonder I love it so much. "Suddenly Seymour" actually gives me goosebumps, no kiddin'. And yeah, "Somewhere that's Green" is an incredibly beautiful song. Never realized how much it's like "Part of Your World". Thanks for that bit of trivia

No prob!

I love that movie too, I didn't really appreciate it enough until lately when they were showing it on HBO. Steve Martin is hilarious as the Dentist, and Rick Moranis is so sweet! (he has a nice voice too.)

"You need blood, and he's got more than enough!" That's an awesome number. Also: "Remember that total eclipse of the sun?" Hilarious!

With the little baby Audrey II at the end (after Seymore and Audrey get married) it made you think they were going to make a sequal....

I think one of the chorus dancers (the three girls) was Tisha Campbell. She played Martin Lawrence's girlfriend Gena on that show "Martin," if you ever watched that.

Post by **AniMan** » July 7th, 2005, 2:43 pm

ShyViolet wrote: I think one of the chorus dancers (the three girls) was Tisha Campbell. She played Martin Lawrence's girlfriend Gena on that show "Martin," if you ever watched that.

Yes, indeed, I used to watch "Martin" and I did remember that Tisha Campbell was one of the doo-wop girls. There were actually only two of them, and the other girl was none other than her future co-star on "Martin", Tichina Arnold, who played her best friend Pam on that show.

Post by **Ben** » July 7th, 2005, 2:50 pm

ShyViolet wrote:
Also glad I grabbed the ORIGINAL DVD with the 22 minute alternate ending!
What was it?? Is it available now?

Sadly not, unless you want to pay BIG $$$s for it on eBay.

You guys know that Little Shop was an amazingly successful of-Broadway musical version of a 1962 Roger Corman el-cheapo horror, right?

Well, the original musical ends - as does the '62 film - with Audrey II literally swallowing up Seymour and breaking out of thr shop, intent on gobbling up the rest of the world and speading its leaves...

Oz's 1986 film originally had that ending, which spikes off to what we know now at the point when Seymour save Audrey from being eaten by Audrey II ("Suppertime II"). At this point, instead of Audrey living and Seymour going back in to finish Audrey II off, Audrey - as in the original film and the musical - dies, singing a gorgeous reprise of "Somewhere That's Green", and telling Seymour that if she's in the plant, she'll be with him. So, on Audrey's wishes, Seymoir feeds her to Audrey II, who then gloats and sends Seymour into desperation.

He runs from Mushnik's, across the street and to the top of a building, where he intents to throw himself off. It's at this point that Skip Snip (not Jim Belushi originally - he came for the Seymour/Audrey reshoot version) comes along and proposes the Audrey II cuttings. Seymour flies off into a rage, goes back into the store and attempts to cut Audrey II up. This doesn't work out, when Audrey II grabs Seymour and dines on him too!

With no-one to stop him, Audrey II spreads throughout America, with the millions of tiny clippings coming to life. Eventually, there are huge ramapaging Audrey IIs stomping their way through major cities and tearing up subways, blowing through skyscrapers and much more. The military come out and there are references to War Of The Worlds and King Kong. But the Audreys just keep on coming, until they "rip" through the movie theater screen and - you guessed it - go on to take over the world!

Despite some AMAZING special effects - animatronic, stop-motion and speed-cheated - the entire ending was changed when test audiences opposed Audrey's death. As he has shown since (primarily with The Stepford Wives), Oz didn't stick to his guns and totally re-shot the ending. One of the Conway brothers (I think Lyle is credited) did tons of work on the sequence, but once he was cut, his name only appears in the end credits waaaaay down the line, since all his stuff was cut out.

The footage only survives today as a black-and-white work print copy, though with almost completed effects, a full-temp music score, and only a handful of shots missing (it's like two or three in the whole 22 minutes). This thing was almost totally finfished and pratically in the film!

When WB put out the very first DVD of the film, which gained clut status and was a BIG hit on video, they wanted a sooper-dooper special edition, and packed it with trailers, the TV making of special, commentary, tests and outtake reel - plus the full, alternate ending.

Initial copies hit stores, but when producer David Geffen (yes, of SKG) realised that the ending had been included without his say so, he ordred all copies be recalled. Only lucky buyers got their hands on it.

Luckily, I was just making the LaserDisc/DVD switch over and actually ended up getting both (I started buying DVDs before I had the player)!

WB subsequently re-issued the disc, sans the ending, but I believe with everything else intact, with the same packaging (though minus mention of the ending). They put it out again late last year, and took off the "Special Edition" tag at the top of the cover, even though it's the same edition - though obviusly without the ending.

If you don't have it on disc, it's a good one to have, either way!

Post by **ShyViolet** » July 7th, 2005, 3:14 pm

You guys know that Little Shop was an amazingly successful of-Broadway musical version of a 1962 Roger Corman el-cheapo horror, right?

Oh yeah, I read that movie was shot in two days on a Hollywood backlot. And a really young Jack Nicholsan played the Bill Murry role!

Wow, never knew all that about the new film....that's interesting, but kind of depressing. It would have been cool though, but not as audience-pleasing, I guess.
What is David Geffen's problem? What's the big deal about showing the extra footage? It's not like he does much anyway, he could at least do this!

Despite some AMAZING special effects - animatronic, stop-motion and speed-cheated - the entire ending was changed when test audiences opposed Audrey's death. As he has shown since (primarily with The Stepford Wives), Oz didn't stick to his guns and totally re-shot the ending.

That's kind of like what happened with What About Bob, which he also directed. (Originally Richard Dryfus was supposed to go crazy and ends up in the Asylum.) Test audiences didn't like it so they re-shot the ending.
Or something like that. It was a Disney film too, (Touchstone) and Bill Murray had a lot of ego problems with their management.

It's funny how the plant is named "Audrey II" so you assume it's a female. (Well, if it has a gender.) But the voice in the end is male!

Yes, indeed, I used to watch "Martin" and I did remember that Tisha Campbell was one of the doo-wop girls. There were actually only two of them, and the other girl was none other than her future co-star on "Martin", Tichina Arnold, who played her best friend Pam on that show.

\

That's neat.

Post by **Ben** » July 7th, 2005, 3:28 pm

Not really Geffen's "attitude". Not releasing the alt-end was down to legal rights.

When the ending was changed, full recordings and the licenses for the use of these versions did not include any additional rights (soundtrack album, video/VHS/video disc, etc) for anything BUT being specifically in the movie.

When they were cut, the right to include the music was not cleared, so it couldn't/shouldn't actually have been released to the public.

Post by **Meg** » July 7th, 2005, 5:55 pm

ShyViolet wrote: Ditto for "Morning Report"!)

I heard they had actually wanted to do "He Lives In You" instead, but decided it didn't move the story foward. And..."The Morning Report" does?

My geuss is they didn't want to use it because it was already in Simba's Pride.

Post by **PatrickvD** » July 8th, 2005, 6:08 am

I always saw Under the Sea as a comic moment for Sebastian. I disagree with how it is confusing because Ariel sang a song about going up there, how she eventually gets what she wants and how that would make Under the Sea pointless. As good as Part of Your World is, Under the Sea is awesome and it deserved the oscar. Does it move the plot forward? probaply no more than Be Our Guests. Just a fun showstopper.

I also looooove the songs in Little Shop. Makes me wish Menken would find a new songwriter with whom he'd make such awesome music again. I'm curious for the new songs he wrote with Glenn Slater for Little Mermaid on broadway.

Post by **Ben** » July 8th, 2005, 7:33 am

Yes, there is little difference between "fun showstoppers" Under The Sea and Be Our Guest.

BUT, Under The Sea (while being a great song - I'm not actually knocking it) simply repeats what we know (how great and fun everything is "beneath the ocean" - there's that reference again!) and doesn't actually add anything new. We know Ariel doesn't want to be down there, despite Sebastion's musical ravings.

Be Our Guest, on the other hand, actually does serve s plot purpose. On finding she is stuck in this castle, Belle feels sad and alone. The talking furniture know that, if she likes it and stays, she could end up saving them all. So the emphasis here is on welcoming Belle to the castles, helping her fit in and feeling like she can make new friends here.

If Be Our Guest had stayed where it was, and had been sung to Maurice, then yes, it would be nothing more than a "welcome" song. But they moved it to somewhere that, while still mainly the film's big number, actually does forward the plot, since Belle's character moves from being depressed at the whole Beast/castle thing to being inquisitive about her new surrounds and having made new aquaintances.

I think, to be honest, that moving the song to this point WAS a lesson learned from Under The Sea.

Post by **ShyViolet** » July 8th, 2005, 12:42 pm

I think the films' plots/orchestration generally got tighter and better crafted as they went along, reaching a peak with "The Lion King."

Aladdin's my fave Ashman-Menken, even though I know it wasn't ALL him.

But I love the score in Aladdin, even more than Beauty if that's possible! It's so just so much fun, every song is a show-stopper (well, maybe not "A Whole New World". I personally think the title and idea is too similar to the Mermaid song.) But "Arabian Nights", what a great one! Prince Ali, Friend like Me, they're all excellent.

I know Ashman wrote a lot of songs for that picture that weren't used. I haven't heard "Proud of Your Boy", I'm sure it's good. Also, I think wasn't one of the nixed songs used for "Aladdin and the King of Theives?"

Lion King had a great story but they definetely could have used Ashman's input for the songs. I like them, they're fun, but compared to "Be Our Guest," no contest. "I Just Can't Wait to be King" is beautifully animated but drags a bit, even though it's catchy and all. "Be Prepared" has great music but the words are kind of...empty.

"Hakuna Matata," really catchy and a good place for a song (definetely advances the plot) but doesn't have as much heart as some better ones did IMO.

The only one I really LOVE is "Can You Feel the Love Tonight", even if it is a little corny. The music is great, and the words have a deeper meaning to them than with the other songs. Oh, and Circle of Life, definetely a winner. It's amazing how that song perfectly opens AND concludes that movie.

I think after Pocahontas, however, it just didn't fly anymore. (I give every song in Pocahontas a 9, with the exception of "Just Around the River Bend," good music but lame lyrics!) Actually, the Quasi songs weren't that bad. But something was lost. The songs in Hercules--wait, what WERE the songs in Hercules? And how many songs were in Mulan, like three? Oh, right, the two not-bad ones and the one HORRIBLE one. ("A Girl with Fighting For")
EDIT: Oh, wait make that two horrible songs, I forgot about "Be A Man", the melody is so grating, and the lyrics are like something from some forgotten animated TV special.

I'm sorry to be so critical, because I really do like some of Quasi's songs and "Reflection" at least has a great melody and a great singer (if lame, lame, lame lyrics) but compared with the Ashman-Menken treasures it's like holding up bronze to gold.

Post by **Ben** » July 8th, 2005, 12:52 pm

I've never been much of a Tim Rice fan when it comes to his "over-laboured" Disney projects - seems he tries too hard to mimic Ashman's deceptively simple wordplay.

A reprise of Arabian Nights for the salesman character that opens Aladdin was intended for the end of Aladdin, and was fully recorded ("Have a kiss and a hug/Sure you don't need a rug?/I assure you the price is right/Happy End/That's the tale/And tomorrow's a sale/and another...Arabian Niiiiiight").

When it was cut, it got shunted to the end of King Of Thieves.

Proud Of Your Boy was another one that really fits into the feel of Somewhere That's Green/Part Of Your World. You can pretty much sing the lyrics to either of those songs!

POYB was doing the rounds as an mp3 file a while ago, but is easily found on the Magic Behind The Music box set (which you should automatically own) and the Aladdin DVD (ditto).

Post by **Macaluso** » July 8th, 2005, 2:22 pm

ShyViolet wrote: The songs in Hercules--wait, what WERE the songs in Hercules? And how many songs were in Mulan, like three? Oh, right, the two not-bad ones and the one HORRIBLE one. ("A Girl with Fighting For")

I thought all the songs in Mulan were awesome. Not so much the first song at the beginning, but I still like them all. A girl worth fighting for I really like, but I love Be a Man the most.

Hercules had lots of songs... The girls (What... were they again?) sung zero to hero. A star is born. And... wasn't there like... two more? Then Hercules sung "Go the distance". Then Phil has his little song. And MEG has the song "I won't say I'm in love"

I like Mulan's score, and all of the other ones mentioned, but there's something REALLY awesome about Hercules' songs.
Somethin' awesome about Hercules in general.

Favorite Menken/Ashman musical score?

What is your favorite musical score from the team of Alan Menken and Howard Ashman?