Pocahontas

[ShyViolet]

I haven't gotten the DVD yet but I know the turkey was supposed to be John Candy or something right?? It might have been cute and everything but it might also have offended Native Americans if Pocahontas's best friend was a turkey...not very respectful if you ask me. I mean, both N.A. and English people ATE turkey on Thanksgiving, didn't they?

[JustinWilliams]

Where'd you get the whole Turkey and best friend idea from?!? It was a talking animal which briefly gave you a bit of duologue between it and Percy. He wasn't singing and jigging with Pocahontas?! As an academic you should base your sweeping statements on some evidence! How'd you know this? Pocahontas gets a deleted song added back into the feature, 'If I never ATE you' between her and Turkey! Gawsh!

[*Sorry, ShyViolet - I did not mean for this to seem rude or offensive - I'm just amazed at the perspective the film was going in at this time]

[Ben]

Well, Justin, the test on the LD and DVD was just that - a test, made from dialogue from Candy's role in Planes, Trains And Automobiles.

It is quite clear that, if Redfeather had stuck around, he would have been "singing and jigging with Pocahontas", as would Percy and the rest of the animals, who all would have been able to speak to Pocahontas (but likely not any of the other humans).

An abandoned story point sees this as how Pocahontas was able to befriend Percy and how Ratcliffe's pooch ended up staying with them and the other animals.

When it was decided that the animals would not speak and the film would take a more sombre tone, the comedic talking animal Readfeather was cut out.

So, before you make YOUR "sweeping statements", I would suggest that you look up some evidence of your own and not be so quick to attack others who are merely putting forward an opinion.


Good thought there, Violet.

[JustinWilliams]

Thank you. As is clear from my less informed response, the DVD does not clarify that like the LD did. Thank you for the evidence. Your detail fleshed out the seemingly 'sweeping' comments and I certainly did not mean to attack - I requested evidence as the comment seemed to come from thin air. I assumed the post's comments were without insight. However, considering we were talking about the DVD, you will excuse the fact I didn't know the context. I look forward to listening/watching the DVD again to check I didn't miss the detail....

Do you really think Pocahontas would be speaking to the animals? Where did you learn this? Is there a lot more on the LD than this DVD? I mean it seems more like animal inner monologue developing another layer to the lyric's sentiment of 'Colour of the Wind'.

Ben, you seem to get angry quickly. Are you okay? Is there a message behind your forum picture. Is it a bit of image therapy?

[Ben]

Anyone that knows me will tell you it takes a LOT to get me angry! I'm a very laid back kinda guy!

I just didn't take that well to your "attack" (yes, I know it's a pretty harsh word to use here, for want of a better one!) on Violet when she was making an innocent comment.

I don't think she DID know the background actually, but was going on the fact that it WAS a test, and therefore led herself to the natural conclusions.

The LD elaborates a little more on the speaking to the animals theme, with more pages of text, but in the end there's a certain part of reading between the lines and putting together other information that one picks up on a film that goes into these things. Just think about it: they're not going to go to the lengths of an animation test for one sequence in a film, eh?


As for my forum avatar: there's no "message" other than that I'm a friendly, easy-going, everyday kind of fellow - hey, a bit like Mickey Mouse. But switch my brain with a rabid version of Peg Leg Pete and who knows WHAT'll hit'cha!

[ShyViolet]

Where'd you get the whole Turkey and best friend idea from?!? It was a talking animal which briefly gave you a bit of duologue between it and Percy. He wasn't singing and jigging with Pocahontas?! As an academic you should base your sweeping statements on some evidence! How'd you know this? Pocahontas gets a deleted song added back into the feature, 'If I never ATE you' between her and Turkey! Gawsh!

[*Sorry, ShyViolet - I did not mean for this to seem rude or offensive - I'm just amazed at the perspective the film was going in at this time]

It's O.K....I just heard about the whole thing from the Jim Hill story, that's all. All I was basing my opinon on was that story where he said that originally Pocahontas was intended to be much more "cartoony" with Pocahontas having a Turkey friend Redfeather. He also said that Candy actually recorded dialouge for this...though I haven't seen anything else about it.

I don't have the DVD yet (and I've never seen the LD, or any LD to be honest) so I haven't seen the "test."

I DO have a tendancy to make sweeping statements sometimes, so I apologize if I said something misleading in my last post, or in any other post.

As for my forum avatar: there's no "message" other than that I'm a friendly, easy-going, everyday kind of fellow - hey, a bit like Mickey Mouse. But switch my brain with a rabid version of Peg Leg Pete and who knows WHAT'll hit'cha!

I like your avatar Ben. I actually just watched that cartoon!

Good thought there, Violet

Thanks!

[ShyViolet]

Jim Hill: From the Archives
April 3, 2001


(c) Disney

Of course, to make room for all this adult stuff (ie: Oscar bait), Jeffrey had to cut back on Pocahontas' cute little forest friends. The first to go was a talking turkey that was supposed to be the Indian princess's confidant. This character, then known as Redfeather, was voiced by John Candy and animated by Nick Ranieri.

Redfeather was originally supposed to have provided much of the comic relief for Pocahontas. Candy came into his recording sessions for the film and, in addition to delivering his scripted lines like a pro, improvised a lot of new, funny material for his character right on the spot. Had Redfeather actually survived to make it into the finished film, Pocahontas probably would have been a lot more fun to watch.

But a talking turkey didn't fit into Jeffrey's vision of an Academy Award-winning animated film. No talking animals did. Under Katzenberg's radical revision of the film, Redfeather became Deadfeather - disappearing completely from the film. In his place came Meeko, the non-talking raccoon and Flit, the mostly-silent hummingbird.

The irony here is that by trying to create a movie that was sure to win a "Best Picture" nomination, Jeffrey profoundly weakened the finished product. He ended up with an animated film that was too serious for kids yet too lightweight for adults. In the end Pocahontas was an artistic failure - a cartoon that meant well, rather than entertained. People were impressed by its beautiful art direction and somber tone, but rarely got caught up in the action. The film got respectful reviews but did less than half the business Lion King had done the previous summer. In the end, Pocahontas was that rarest of cartoons: well intended, but not much fun to watch.

The real tragedy here is that not too long after John Candy's character got cut from the film John passed away. The heavyset comedian died in his sleep in March 1994 while on location shooting a comic western in Mexico. Some of Candy's last work - perhaps his best work - is preserved on those Redfeather recording sessions for Pocahontas. Too bad we're never going to get to hear them.

Did I mention that some of these stories are really depressing?

And, while it would be nice to report that Jeffrey Katzenberg learned from the mistakes he made on Pocahontas, anyone who saw Dreamworks' premiere animated feature The Prince of Egypt, knows that Jeffrey's still up to his old tricks. It wasn't enough that the new studio's first traditional animated film be entertaining. It also had to be important.

Somewhere along the line, Katzenberg has gotten his priorities a little screwed up. Yes, it's nice when movies - particularly animated movies - win awards. But a movie's first goal should be to entertain. Not enlighten. Not inform. But entertain.

Stop chasing after awards, Jeffrey. If you make the most entertaining film possible, don't worry, the awards will find you. On the other hand, if your main purpose for making a movie is win praise and awards, you'll probably get neither.

Just a tip from a guy who likes turkey.

Even though I respect Jim Hill I happen to think that he's totally wrong about this. Making an animated film with lofty goals is no crime, it's an achievement. Films like Pocahontas and Prince of Egypt were both risky, yes, but they both had something important to say and said it in a creative, inspiring, memorable way. Not every movie has to be only "fun", even if it is animated!

Plus Pocahontas confiding in a talking Turkey...I don't know what Jim was thinking of but personally I don't see that being too successful...Pocahontas would have been criticized no matter WHAT it was like. Can you imagine what the critics would have said: That Disney took a serious subject like English/Native American relations and "Disneyfied" it with cute characters and slapstick...NOT good for the company at all. And I don't believe that Pocahontas was an "artistic failure"--the story may be a little weak but there are great moments (and a few funny ones too, for his information.) Plus Jim forgot to mention that Jeffrey left a full year before the film was released. (even though he wanted to stay and finish it.)

Wonder if John Candy's voice work was actually preserved....

(From the Laughing Place website.)

[PatrickvD]

I like Pocahontas the way it is. The music is phenomenal, the enire design of the film and even the story do just fine. It really isn't as bad as some people make it seem. In my opinion, those ten years have put this film in the right perspective. A great film, regardless of the fact that it's losely based on the source material.

[Ben]

First I've ever heard about Candy actually recording lines for this. I was under the impression that the character was cut way before, when all that existed was that test, and his lines were from Planes, Trains And Automobiles for that.

Plus Hill completely forgets that Candy is already a piece of Disney history, as the voice or Wilbur the Albatross, Orville's brother, in The Rescuers Down Under.

I also agree that a cartoon doesn't have to be "fun" to be entertaining. While a bit po-faced, Pocahontas (and Prince Of Egypt and Spirit for that matter) are all a different type of genre: epics.

[ShyViolet]

Plus Hill completely forgets that Candy is already a piece of Disney history, as the voice or Wilbur the Albatross, Orville's brother, in The Rescuers Down Under

Actually he did mention that earlier; I just didn't paste that part.

Spirit was awesome. The way N.A.'s are in tune with nature and the earth (kind of a stereotype, but at least not a terribly offensive one) is also present in Pocahontas. Hmmm....maybe Little Creek and Pocahontas should have got together.

I love all three of the "epic" films not just because of their "big" moments but because of the little moments too.

Pocahontas and Nakoma horsing around in the river/canoe.

Pocahontas when she first sees the ships. "Strange clouds."

Spirit when he meets the little N.A. child who wants to play with him.

Moses and Rameses "bonding" as brothers, dumping water on Huy and Hotep. (That was sooooo cute. )

Despite what Hill thinks these films have SUBTELTY (not something that Disney is particularly known for) and capture wonderful moments of human emotion. That's what makes them "epic" IMHO.

[Once Upon A Dream]

Another Musical Master Edition.
Here's the cover:

I don't know when it will be released yet.
Anyway the cover is more original but only Flint looks good,Poca looks like a bad doll,Meeko looks weird and John Smith looks old.

[Ben]

Gad-zooks!

It must make people like Keane spew up in the stores when they see their delicate characters manhandled like this!

[Once Upon A Dream]

Yeah,I agree with you,she looks awful,I think she was even more on-model in Pocahontas II then in this cover.
Hopefully it will be edited until it will be released.

[Daniel]

That is such a lame tag, are we sure this is for R1? Sounds too simmilar to the treament Aladdin is getting for R2.

BTW, here's an old Poca thread.

[Once Upon A Dream]

I think it's R2,like the Aladdin MME that came in June.
It is a lame tag,I wonder which movies will be next.
I might buy this if it will be released here because I don't have Pocahontas on DVD,but I don't think that the Aladdin MME was released here.
Another MME,Mulan this time:
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/8425/mulanbz9.jpg