Meet The Robinsons

[ShyViolet]

Slowly but surely, MTR is heading ever closer towards that 100 million dollar mark!!


http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/ ... ffice.html

[Meg]

I get your points Meg, but I have a concern...does more animated films with PG-13 ratings, R ratings (or even NC-17) really make them more "adult"? (Or better yet: mature?)

IMHO it's all about the essence of the story, and whether or not those ratings are part and partial to making it a better one, or just a way of pandering to adult consumers?

Goodness no, that's not what I’m saying at all. What I mean is I want to see more mature stories - you know, aimed at an older audience. Even the films you pointed out, like Treasure Planet or Spirit, seem to be aimed at being first-and-foremost family films.

Now don't get me wrong, I love an animated film everyone can enjoy...It's just that I think American animation can be so much more. Again, I'm not talking about cartoon porn or anything, just something with a mature and intelligent story.

[Ben]

I'll keep pointing to Martin Rosen's <I>Watership Down</I> and <I>The Plague Dogs</I> until my arm falls off!

[ShyViolet]

Again, I'm not talking about cartoon porn or anything, just something with a mature and intelligent story.

I get you Meg, but originally, when Walt made Snow White, everyone was doubting that he could take a medium that had ONLY produced shorts up until then (watched by adults, mainly) and make an actual "film-film" for everyone to appreciate.

Trying to be a "filmmaker" with animation was not only seen as foolish, but as economic and professional suicide.

That's why Walt won those "7 Oscars" that year....because he made a great FILM, not a great "children's film."

I'll keep pointing to Martin Rosen's Watership Down and The Plague Dogs until my arm falls off!

Totally Ben!

Just don't hurt yourself!

Even the films you pointed out, like Treasure Planet or Spirit, seem to be aimed at being first-and-foremost family films.

But that's just a perception, Meg, at least IMO. They are "safe" for kids to watch and there for people perceive them as "kid films" but their directors/makers/producers did not design them as such. They were designed as movies, period. Movies that happened to be drawn.

It's critics and the rest of Hollywood (as well as audience members) that have pigeonholed them as children's fare.

Goodness no, that's not what I’m saying at all. What I mean is I want to see more mature stories - you know, aimed at an older audience.

But who's to say older audiences can't enjoy the films we talk about here all the time?

Mainly they reject them because they haven't seen them and don't bother to give them a chance. The perception of animation as a kid thing is so strong that inhibits MANY people from watching films they would otherwise love--at least I think so.

.It's just that I think American animation can be so much more.

I think it can be more too, but so can regular live-action films.

There have been some places that American animation hasn't gone it's true, (yet) but there are many different places it HAS been at the same time as well--many of which live-actions films simply fear to tread. (scenes of terror, childhood abandonment, fantastic voyages and journeys...sure, live-action has done this, but how many times has it actually been GOOD? )

It depends what you mean by "more"--more serious stories? We've had those (Pocahontas, POE, and Hunchback all had themes of mass death and slavery) and there has been a shift away from them, but hopefully we'll be seeing a trend back towards that.

I'd love to see more difficult themes tackled in animation as well, but that doesn't mean there isn't already a huge wealth of material to choose from!

[YCougar]

I agree with y'all in that just because the movie has enough violence/sex/etc to bump its rating up does not mean it's more "mature." Far from it, actually... and it's actually part of my beef with "adult" cartoons.

But at the same time, there are things that can't be properly portrayed at a lower rating. One of the decisions I made a while ago was to not watch any R-rated movies, because for them to earn that rating means there's probably quite a bit of stuff in them I'm not interested in seeing. BUT, if I ever were to see a R-rated film, Schindler's List would be it. Many people I know tell me it's absolutely wonderful/dreadful and would not have nearly the impact if they'd watered down anything.

So... while there's a good chance I wouldn't see a lot of them, I wouldn't mind to see animation head into the upper ratings so long as there was a good reason for them to be there. Unfortunately, we'd probably end up with as much high-rated garbage as you get in live-action... which makes me kinda want to keep things as they are, but sneak in heavier themes when possible. I loved when previous films (like Pocahontas, POE, Hunchback) have had the guts to throw in some heavy themes and cause us to invest more emotion in the story... just wish it happened a little more often is all.

But then... I guess we'd all be spoiled, heh.

Y'know, I need to see MTR eventually so I can actually contribute something of worth to this thread.

[ShyViolet]

Y'know, I need to see MTR eventually so I can actually contribute something of worth to this thread. Razz

LOL , no worries YCougar, your comments are always interesting.

[Daniel]

Slowly but surely, MTR is heading ever closer towards that 100 million dollar mark!!

Alright! Shows "word of mouth" is really spreading. Yay.

[Meg]

It's critics and the rest of Hollywood (as well as audience members) that have pigeonholed them as children's fare.

Yeah, see, that's my point.

Again, I know that there are plenty of animated films with heavier themes, and adult animated films like the ones Ben mentioned, but animation is seen by MOST people as kids' stuff - and there's a reason for that.

Yes, movies like Pocahontas and Hunchback have more serious themes than most of the animated flicks nowadays, but again, they're first and foremost family films. There's nothing in them that would make me say, "I wouldn't want a kid to see that! It's much too mature." And like YCougar said, a more adult film doesn't mean it it has to be stuffed with sex and voilence and swearing...Schindler's List, like she pointed to, is an adult film not because of that sort of thing, but because it's a mature story.

(Oh - and I'm not saying Pocahonta and Hunchback are bad films, not at all - just using something as an example.)

[ShyViolet]

Good points, Meg!


I still feel a lot of animation's "reputation" is due to misconceptions, but it's true that it does stay in a certain "safe zone."

[Whippet Angel]

Look at Anime, it's got a ton of violence/sex in (much) of it, even if not all.

I know a lot of people feel that that quality makes Anime in general more sophisticated than American fare like Shrek, Toy Story, Over the Hedge, Finding Nemo, Incredibles, Ratatouille, etc....I don't agree, however. (Or Disney's Little Mermaid, Aladdin, etc...)

Okaaaaaaaay...... I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

There is SO much more to anime than Miyazaki or what you see on cartoon network late at night. The reason it is so popular in Japan is because it is a medium used to entertain people of ALL ages. It is considered neither a "kids", "family" or "adult" medium, and that is probably why many adults prefer anime to western animation.

It kinda relates to what Meg was saying about the lack of "mature" animated films. TMNT was a good example. It had its occasional "dark" or "serious" moment, but never got too much for it to break its "family film" rating.

Like YCougar was saying in the TMNT thread, it might have been better if they'd left the darker material in the film, and given it a PG13 rating instead. Not that the film wasn't enjoyable for what it was, but it would be harder for american audiences to dismiss it as a "kids flick" that way.

[ShyViolet]

There is SO much more to anime than Miyazaki or what you see on cartoon network late at night. The reason it is so popular in Japan is because it is a medium used to entertain people of ALL ages. It is considered neither a "kids", "family" or "adult" medium, and that is probably why many adults prefer anime to western animation.

I'm sure there are some stunning, non-Miyazaki films out there, and I'm not trying to put Anime down as an entire art form.

But if Anime truly transcends the adult/child/American/Asian barriers, why hasn't it caught on more in America? Or, for that matter, the rest of the world? (not counting Asian countries)

My fave Anime films/shows were "designed for kids" (at least on the surface) since their creators were commissioned to make "kid's films." But there is a power and beauty in them rarely seen in art forms, animated or live-action, Eastern or Western, "kiddie film" or not.

I KNOW I need to watch more "adult" or at least (age-neutral) Anime to make a better assessment, and I'm sure there are some great ones, but I just don't see them having the same "universality" that a classic Disney or Warner Brothers short has.

Many are long-running serials, which are popular in Asian countries but not America or much of the West. There is nothing wrong with long-running animated serials, but for some reason, it doesn't grab people that much outside of Asia. It doesn't mean it's inferior to Western animated cinema, but it doesn't have the same wide-ranging appeal.

It's on a different wavelength. It's subjective of course, on whether or not that wavelength is right for you. Many Anime fans feel it is right for them, but the majority of animation fans find it lacking.

That's why I think that, in general, one-shot self contained films like Spirited Away and My Neighbor Totoro have transcended Japan and exploded in popularity the world over.

**************************************************


Another thing I find lacking about Anime is the limited range of expression. With the "children's" films somehow that doesn't seem as important since, as I think I've said before, there are often child or at least juvenile protagonists in these films, and the "intensity" of childlike emotion grief/happiness/fear/anger is fitting to the Anime style.

But with a more "grown-up" film like Akira (which I still think is all in all a good movie) the effect is constricting rather than freeing. The story is quite complex and the themes extremely intense. And yet....you never REALLY KNOW what any of the characters are feeling! Ever! (THis might be partly due to the script, which has cold, detached quality to it, amazing touches and directing notwithstanding.)

I liked Kanada and Tetsuo, particularly since, having seen this film in my teens, I could identify with their emotional struggles....however, it was also quite hard to know what was going on in their minds.

With a character like say, Dumbo, a flying elephant with giant ears, you see the hurt in his eyes when he is made to be a clown, when he wants to please others, when his mother is taken away. It breaks your heart every time.

And...he's an elephant.

I think Anime films have made great strides and Miyazaki is more "Walt Disney" than John Lassetter will ever be, but so far, they haven't that matched that.

[YCougar]

Another problem for anime in the US is the cruddily-dubbed imports slapped on Saturday morning TV, edited so heavily that not only is there anything left to intellectually stimulate the kids, there's hardly any coherence left to the story. So the general public dismisses it as "that weird stuff with the big eyes and blue hair that they make in Japan."

I don't even like anime much and I realize that. I can appreciate the stories, which is why I follow one series my friend poked me into watching... but the art/animation style doesn't do much for me, is all.

[ShyViolet]

Like YCougar was saying in the TMNT thread, it might have been better if they'd left the darker material in the film, and given it a PG13 rating instead. Not that the film wasn't enjoyable for what it was, but it would be harder for american audiences to dismiss it as a "kids flick" that way.

I still believe it's all about story. They could have taken the kid's stuff out, put more violence in, and it still could be a lousy film. (NOT that it was, I haven't seen it, so I can't make any judgements! )

The Lion King was ostensibly geared for children...but man, there was some HEAVY stuff in that film. Seeing your father murdered as a child (OK, lion cub) and blaming yourself for it. Having to fight your uncle to the near-death (well, OK, right before the the hyenas kill him) to get back the kingdom he stole, right after he roughed up your mom. Knowing that you can't go on squandering your life because of the trauma you endured as a child.....does any of this sound like a prototypical "kid's flick"?

Even with the scary scenes (and first-ever scatological humor in a Disney film ) the film was not successful because of these things...but because it dealt with sobering topics like maturity, loss of childhood innocence and responsibility to others (as did Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast, if on a slightly lesser scale).

[YCougar]

I still believe it's all about story. They could have taken the kid's stuff out, put more violence in, and it still could be a lousy film. (NOT that it was, I haven't seen it, so I can't make any judgements! )

Well, I would argue that the monster subplot was kinda geared toward keeping-the-kids-awake-because-family-fights-are-boring, but as far as the action goes it felt a little like they were pulling punches... which happens in kids' cartoons sometimes and is a little distracting. But hopefully you will get the chance to make that judgement yourself.

(and first-ever scatological humor in a Disney film )

One of the only things I wish TLK hadn't done. Oh the precedent they set. But yes, THAT is the kind of maturity I like in films, even ones aimed at the kids. The sort of stuff that's layered, so you understand it on a superficial level (Scar kills Mufasa because he's BAD and Simba runs away, then Simba goes back and beats Scar because he's GOOD) as a kid, but as you get older you find deeper and deeper stuff (like the whole taking-responsibility angle, and the deal with Scar's jealousy). Unfortunately it's hard to put something like that together, which is (I assume) why we don't see very much of 'em.

[ShyViolet]

One of the only things I wish TLK hadn't done.

Yeah, tell me about it.

Ditto the Shrek films....