Favorite Menken/Ashman musical score?

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What is your favorite musical score from the team of Alan Menken and Howard Ashman?

Poll ended at July 6th, 2005, 6:47 pm

The Little Mermaid
1
11%
Beauty and the Beast
5
56%
Aladdin
3
33%
 
Total votes: 9

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Post by PatrickvD » July 8th, 2005, 6:44 pm

Ben wrote:Yes, there is little difference between "fun showstoppers" Under The Sea and Be Our Guest.

BUT, Under The Sea (while being a great song - I'm not actually knocking it) simply repeats what we know (how great and fun everything is "beneath the ocean" - there's that reference again!) and doesn't actually add anything new. We know Ariel doesn't want to be down there, despite Sebastion's musical ravings.

Be Our Guest, on the other hand, actually does serve s plot purpose. On finding she is stuck in this castle, Belle feels sad and alone. The talking furniture know that, if she likes it and stays, she could end up saving them all. So the emphasis here is on welcoming Belle to the castles, helping her fit in and feeling like she can make new friends here.

If Be Our Guest had stayed where it was, and had been sung to Maurice, then yes, it would be nothing more than a "welcome" song. But they moved it to somewhere that, while still mainly the film's big number, actually does forward the plot, since Belle's character moves from being depressed at the whole Beast/castle thing to being inquisitive about her new surrounds and having made new aquaintances.

I think, to be honest, that moving the song to this point WAS a lesson learned from Under The Sea.
Never looked at it that way, but your probaply right. I remember learning Be Our Guest was originally written for Maurice. Thank God they came to their senses. Maurice, though a great supporting character, is just that... a supporting character, the song works perfect for Belle.

Your right to say there's no real character development going on in Under the Sea. Maybe for Sebastian, to show just how much he has to put with regarding Ariel ("somebody's got to nail that girls fins t the floor") but that was really after the song. Still the movie would not be the same without it :D

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Post by PatrickvD » July 8th, 2005, 6:52 pm

Ben wrote:POYB was doing the rounds as an mp3 file a while ago, but is easily found on the Magic Behind The Music box set (which you should automatically own) and the Aladdin DVD (ditto).
arrg, I so want that cd box set, but I can't find it anywhere. Seen a couple on ebay, but havent tried anything yet as I'm so bad with ebay auctions. Always afraid I get scr*wed over. That cd box set looks like an amazing showcase of their development over the years. I've heard some of the earlier versions of songs and some unused consepts here and there but never the whole thing. It comes with a book too right?

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Post by Josh » July 8th, 2005, 11:28 pm

Yes, Patrick, The Magic Behind the Music also comes with a nice book. I highly recommend that you try to get yourself a copy of the set, either from eBay or Amazon.com. I bought mine last year from the latter, for around $20.

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Post by Ben » July 10th, 2005, 7:00 am

It is an amazing box, and the "book" is much more than that - if it was in a hardbacked cover, it would almost be a coffee-table sized tome.

Richly illustrated, with pencil drawings, final frame blow-ups and stills, plus Menken's personal comments on all the songs.

I would also recommend The Music Of Disney (big blue box, with Mickey playing the piano on the front) which has the same style (12" LaserDisc-sized boxed set with four CDs and the same-styled book). This one isn't filled with such rarities, but is a great look back at Disney music, from Steamboat Willie to Beauty And The Beast, with some rare single versions of the "pop" songs from Disney's past films.

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Post by PatrickvD » July 10th, 2005, 9:53 am

Thanks for the tips. I'm gonna see if I can get my hands on Magic behind the Music first. Always wanted that one.

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Post by ShyViolet » July 26th, 2005, 4:15 pm

I heard they had actually wanted to do "He Lives In You" instead, but decided it didn't move the story foward
They should have done that one. I have that song on one of my Disney CDs and I LOVE IT. Much more opportunity for inspired animation than "Morning Report" where the whole thing is just....Simba prancing around and bugging Zazu. :roll:
You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

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Post by Ben » July 26th, 2005, 6:20 pm

It was a contract thing too.

Basically, they didn't want to get into a situation where someone other than John and Rice were resposible for all the songs (for example: Music and lyrics by Elton John and Tim Rice, except for Shadowlands - which would have been my pick).

So, they were stuck with one of the three songs written for the show by John and Rice. It's really as simple as that (plus the fact that He Lives In Me was originally written for the Pridelands album, then used in Simba's Pride, before the stage show came along).

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Post by ShyViolet » August 31st, 2006, 9:25 pm

I'd like to see Alan Menken really involved in a new disney feature animation project again,
I know this thread is quite old, but I just had to comment on this as it seems our dreams have actually finally come true. :)

And Stephen Schwartz of POE and Pochanotas fame working with him as well...what more could you want?? :D
You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

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Post by PatrickvD » September 1st, 2006, 5:50 am

ShyViolet wrote:
And Stephen Schwartz of POE and Pochanotas fame working with him as well...what more could you want?? :D
Howard Ashman back?

lol seriously, Stephen Schwartz isn't that great in my opinion..

I think David Zippel is a much better lyricist. The stuff he did for Mulan, Hercules and Tarzan was great.

yes, Hunchback and Pocahontas were brilliant, but that was thanks to Menken. I think with a better lyricist, they could have been even more brilliant.

Prince of Egypt showed to me that Schwartz isn't so amazing when he's not writing with Menken. I honestly can only remember that Mariah Carrey/Whitney Houston soundtrack song from that film. And that's not a good thing.

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Post by ShyViolet » September 1st, 2006, 1:54 pm

Listen to it again... :) The River Lullaby, Deliver Us, and The Ten Plagues songs are all incredible.

The first time I heard The River Lullaby was on a TV special for POE back in 1998...I was hooked righ there. I knew then that this movie would be amazing.

Pochanotas was also wonderful--particularly Steady as the Beating Drum, Colors of the Wind and Savages.

Schwartz may be no Ashman, (how many people can be?) but compared to Tim Rice? C'mon, he's a genius next to him. :roll:
The stuff he did for Mulan, Hercules and Tarzan was great.


I'm sorry to say that I pretty much hated the songs in all those films (well, I don't remember too many songs in Tarzan, just the Phil Collins stuff)

Reflection and Honor to Us all were nice, but more for the music than anything else. Hercules was too "pop" for my taste (I love the film, don't get me wrong).

Sorry to offend those who liked these soundtracks, this is just my opinion....what do I know? :roll:
You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

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Post by PatrickvD » September 9th, 2006, 2:50 pm

ShyViolet wrote:Listen to it again... :) The River Lullaby, Deliver Us, and The Ten Plagues songs are all incredible.

The first time I heard The River Lullaby was on a TV special for POE back in 1998...I was hooked righ there. I knew then that this movie would be amazing.

Pochanotas was also wonderful--particularly Steady as the Beating Drum, Colors of the Wind and Savages.

Schwartz may be no Ashman, (how many people can be?) but compared to Tim Rice? C'mon, he's a genius next to him. :roll:
The stuff he did for Mulan, Hercules and Tarzan was great.


I'm sorry to say that I pretty much hated the songs in all those films (well, I don't remember too many songs in Tarzan, just the Phil Collins stuff)

Reflection and Honor to Us all were nice, but more for the music than anything else. Hercules was too "pop" for my taste (I love the film, don't get me wrong).

Sorry to offend those who liked these soundtracks, this is just my opinion....what do I know? :roll:
not much obviously :P nah just kidding

The Gospel Truth, Zero to Hero, Go the Distance, I Won't Say I'm in Love, Reflection and Honor to Us All are all excellent.

Zero to Hero in particular is just awesome. That entire scene MADE the movie, for me.

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Post by ShyViolet » September 10th, 2006, 8:45 pm


not much obviously
8) :P
I Won't Say I'm in Love, Reflection and Honor to Us All are all excellent.
These are actually pretty good...I have to admit that I do like Reflection a lot, as well as Honor to Us All. The music, anyway. The words themselves are kind of blah...feel like filler. Reflection isn't too bad, but HTUA was just missing something. The words made it seem more "cute" than anything else; ("a new hairdo"?) the music conveyed the sacredness of tradition and needed deeper lyrics than the ones we got. :roll:

That was my main problem with the songs in Mulan. Mostly fluff. It's a serious subject, (IMO) and there was way too much comedy. The lyrics in "I"ll Make a Man out of You" or whatever it was called...ahhhh! :twisted: Let me remind you: one of the lines was "Why was I a fool for cutting gym?" (??????) OH BROTHER. :roll:

"A Girl Worth Fighting For" was a very good idea, especially since it focuses on the men and their relationship with Mulan/Ping. But since none of the men are very interesting, this song comes off as pointless. (It also has a very rah-rah American style that seems to be the opposite of the "authenticity" that the filmmakers were trying to achieve. Hey, we're in CHINA--shouldn't the songs AT LEAST sound a little Chinese? Even Aladdin, with the exception of "A Whole New World," had kind of a Middle Eastern thing going under the melodies of its otherwise pure Broadway soundtrack. HTUA and reflection had the right idea, but it doesn't last.)

The Gospel Truth, Zero to Hero, Go the Distance, I Won't Say I'm in Love

The truth is I only really remember Go the Distance and I Won't Say, mostly because I had them on my Disney Classics CDs. They were "hummable" anyway, I Won't Say has a nice beat and melody but to me it's just nothing special. Sorry. :wink: Go the Distance is WAY too much like "Out There" from Hunchback (which was already too much like Just Around the River Bend, Part of Your World, etc....) I thought the idea was nice, especially since Hercules IS one of the few post-Katzenberg Diz flicks that left a real impression on me, unlike the others, which were pleasant but like I said...nothing special.

Again I'm sorry as I know many people love those films. Just my opinion. :roll: I liked GTD but I think it should have let us in more on Herc's character and his relationship with his adopted parents (who kind of disappear after Herc finds out his true origins) GTD should have been the "Proud of Your Boy" of Hercules. Instead it's a sweet song with no real point other than Herc feels outcast....which in animated films is like "what else is new"? :roll:

As for the other two...again I have to be bluntly honest. I don't remember them, but I will say that I didn't much care for the chorus girls. I didn't think mixing pop/blues with Ancient Greece really worked. And...that chorus kind of annoyed me. (Sorry. :oops: ) They really served no purpose in the film as they were not real characters with personalities. If you're going to have a narrator, he should either be directly involved in the story (like Jiminy Cricket) or an off-screen voice that helps tell the story but doesn't impose on it. Having the chorus there was just a distraction and an unsuccessful attempt to update Greek comedy/tradgedies.


EDIT: i.e.: What if that street merchant in Aladdin kept dropping in with his opinion of the action? :roll:

I know that no one can be like Howard Ashman, but IMO the actual lyrics of POE and Pocahontas completely outclass anything in Mulan, Hercules or Tarzan.
Last edited by ShyViolet on September 12th, 2006, 10:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

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Post by Ben » September 11th, 2006, 9:25 am

One day I should post the song demos for my "The Emperor's New Clothes" animated musical. I wrote the lyrics for that in a very Ashman-inspired way. The man was a genius.

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Post by Josh » September 11th, 2006, 10:30 am

Ever since I heard about your musical, I've wanted to hear the songs for it, Ben. I hope you still get to make The Emperor's New Clothes someday.

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Post by ShyViolet » September 11th, 2006, 6:22 pm


One day I should post the song demos for my "The Emperor's New Clothes" animated musical.

That would be awesome! :wink: :)
I hope you still get to make The Emperor's New Clothes someday.
So do I. :wink:




Also just one last question:


How can ANYONE get past the fact that the makers of Mulan ACTUALLY LET HARVEY FIRESTEIN SING in this movie?????????!!!!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :twisted:
You can’t just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry!

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