Disney Renaissance 2/Disney Revival

[Ben]

Wait...you’re really pushing Bug Hero 6 as the one that broke out of the new Revival films? Big Hero 6. The one where most people wouldn’t even know what a Baymax is? "What? A Betamax? Isn’t that an old tape format?" Whereas Tangled, Frozen (duh) and evening Zootopia/Zootropolis broke through to the wider non-animation audiences. I bet you’d be hard-pressed to even find a non-animation fan to name Big Hero 6's title!

Ralph *is* a weird one, I’ll give you that, since even though IT GOT A SEQUEL, meaning some level of added exposure seeped through to the non-animation crowd — and even that was mostly videogame nerds — it still remains something of an "inside" movie.

And, isn’t it odd how after the exposure OhMyDisney.com got in Ralph 2, they haven’t really done anything with it since, except for pushing D+'s now out of date launch? You’d think that they’d be all over pushing all the legacy stuff to tie into that film and get people excited about all the other references and films that tie into it...

[Farerb]

So Hercules wasn't successful because people got tired about Disney films because of the previous film, but Treasure Planet wasn't successful because its previous film was a success to the point it overshadowed Treasure Planet? Wouldn't Lilo & Stitch success make more anticipation towards the next film? Isn't the fact that Treasure Planet was released two weeks after Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets is what made it a failure? I mean people liked Lilo & Stitch, but no one thought it was the next Beauty and the Beast or The Lion King. It didn't have the power to destroy other films.

Regarding Hunchback's popularity - no I haven't been at Disney Parks lately, I don't live in the US so I can't come and go as I please, but what I do see is that it is relatively talked about just as much as Hercules and the others, it has its fair share of merch and Funko and whatever just like the others, it has a stage production with moderate success and it has a remake planned just like Hercules and Mulan and even Lilo & Stitch does, so I don't know in what way it is not as remembered or beloved as the other 95-02 films, maybe it has something to do with the parks, but how much of the people on the internet go and visit the parks regularly? I also think that Disney has difficulties marketing this film because of its more mature nature, just like they do with Who Framed Roger Rabbit. So IDK I don't feel like Ralph made any everlasting impression, the film came and went and the sequel came and went. How much was this film talked about? How is it doing with D+ views?

And I also disagree about Moana. I thought it was the best M&C since Aladdin. Treasure Planet as underrated as it was had its issues, Hercules as well. I also know that everyone here will probably disagree with me but I felt like Moana was the best we got from the Revival and the most fun I had watching a Disney film since the 90's. As far as M&C ranking, this is mine:
1. Aladdin
2. Moana
3. The Little Mermaid
4. The Great Mouse Detective
5. Hercules
6. Treasure Planet
7. The Princess and the Frog

[Randall]

I'm a little late coming in, but I have to say that I reject any argument that places Hunchback or Mulan as weaker or disappointing films. Masterpieces both. Even Herc, the zany comedy of the bunch, is superior to most other animated films of the last 10 years. (I find most of Blue Sky, Illumination, recent DreamWorks, Sony - Spider-Verse aside obviously, and Warner's entries to be pretty mediocre for the most part, even if they have their moments.) And none of those 90s films were total flops, they just didn't make Lion King numbers. There's a reason why it's called "lightning in a bottle."

As for the more modern films like Big Hero 6 and Zootopia, perhaps is it too early to judge, or more likely they are just blending in with the ton of product that has come out. I think that those ones, Frozen and Moana are each highly entertaining and well-made, but struggle to stand out in a field that has become swamped with animated product, even if they are a cut above most. These days, there is always a rush to the NEXT big thing, leaving the LAST big thing in the dust. And with about a dozen major animated releases each year - one per month, pre-pandemic! - that is a whole lot of big things in the scrap heap.

[Ben]

I think your Ron 'n' John ranking is about spot on, but those are hard things to place!

I would *maybe* swap Herc and Planet around — because I really find Planet gets dumped on when it doesn’t deserve to — but all of those films, perhaps Frog aside, which is too long, all have terrific and important things about them that makes them all winners.

I’m a huge Moana fan, too, and would say that made something of an impact with wider audiences. Not on a Frozen level, perhaps, but it’s a better film than Frozen by far, and gorgeous to look at.

[Farerb]

I like all of their films, Treasure Planet is there because I like the others more but I do think it's underrated and deserves more recognition.

I think Moana, like Tangled, had more of an impact after its initial release. I liked Frozen but I didn't think it was the greatest thing ever. Both films reminds me more of the classical Disney feel - Tangled because of its narrative choices and Moana because of the witty M&C humor.

Edit: I know that Frozen was THAT film for a lot of people, but for me its heavy focus on subversions of Disney tropes is what makes it less than the other two. That and it has a tendency to be less mature and more infantilized with Olaf and the Trolls.

[Bill1978]

Frozen is The Lion King of the new stuff for me. They are popular with the general population and the default movie to watch and sing songs from for many. For me, however, I prefer the movies that were released before and after it a lot more. Not saying they are bad but I prefer to watch Beauty over Lion King, Tangled over Frozen. In fact, with the renaissance films The Lion King is usually at the bottom of my re-watch list.

In regards to the revival, I think we may need to wait another 5 years or so to see how the films are remembered. At the moment I think the Frozen series is preventing the general public from truly remembering all the other films that came just before and after it. Just like The Lion King dominated the 90s at the time. We need nostalgia to really kick in. That's what I've noticed with Hercules in particular (which I loved when first released and still do). It was deemed disappointing by the general public but with 20 years of play people have really embraced the songs and so can look back and say this movie is really fun and enjoyable.

And truthfully, if you make any animated film a musical, with good quality songs that are incorporated well into the plot, I'm gonna be all over it with praise. The only thing I truly ask from the public when they start to re-embrace the 'forgotten' films. For the love of God, stop trying to say a Disney Shared Universe exists.

[EricJ]

Wait...you’re really pushing Bug Hero 6 as the one that broke out of the new Revival films? Big Hero 6.

No, Ferb's point was that the new ones are "forgettable", and I was pushing BH6 as the only one of the last few years that actually has been amnesially forgotten by most of the audience since it opened.
Unless you count the '11 Winnie the Pooh, which Ferb did apparently forget, but at least that one had explainable circumstances.

The one where most people wouldn’t even know what a Baymax is?

The one where John Lasseter--who you'd THINK, from all his bragging about being besties with Hayao Miyazaki, would be steeped enough in Japanese culture--might try to stick a little closer to the Marvel comic and keep the Johnny Sokko gag.
(And the Sailor Moon joke about Honey Lemon, and the Bubblegum Crisis joke about Gogo. Oh, such wasted possibilities...)

Ralph *is* a weird one, I’ll give you that, since even though IT GOT A SEQUEL, meaning some level of added exposure seeped through to the non-animation crowd — and even that was mostly videogame nerds — it still remains something of an "inside" movie.

We liked it. Frozen hadn't happened yet, Disney's reputation was still coasting on Tangled, and gushy college Disney fangrrls wanted to be Vannelope long before they wanted to be a Lesbian Elsa.
And be honest, if M&C are retiring, Ralph's probably going to be the most sympathetic male Disney character we're going to get for a while...The first one, anyway, not the petty post-Frozen dogpiling he got in the sequel.

Frozen is The Lion King of the new stuff for me. They are popular with the general population and the default movie to watch and sing songs from for many. For me, however, I prefer the movies that were released before and after it a lot more. Not saying they are bad but I prefer to watch Beauty over Lion King, Tangled over Frozen. In fact, with the renaissance films The Lion King is usually at the bottom of my re-watch list.

And both "inherited" manic overpraise as delayed-reaction from an audience that was now grudgingly admitting they liked Disney again after a string of three good films broke the "curse", with the last film (Aladdin/Ralph) nailing it, and became more of a symbolic act for new adult fans to display how much they liked it, even if it blinded them to the movie's basic...flaws.
And then had those same confused grownups turn them into some larger issue apart from the film, like LK's "daddy-guilt" theme or Frozen's evil song.

As for the M&C ranking, move Moana to the bottom for utter headscratching lack of any cohesive plot whatsoever, and the rest's just about right.

[Ben]

I’m with you Bill, on Lion King. Aladdin is my favourite of the 90s films, with Tarzan and Hercules up there for me too, but I always have to be in the right mood to go through Lion King again.

It’s nice to see Hercules being remembered better than when it first came out: the humor, especially, seems to be something that keeps it fresh among "the kids", as well as the zippy songs. They could have a big hit on their hands if they keep the songs in the remake. Well. If it doesn’t even up going to D+.

And it’s cool to see Tangled winning out over Frozen, which is an almost masterpiece for 33 minutes but then sinks after the way-too-high peak of Let It Go. But Tangled is again always seemingly chosen by younger audiences with the benefit of not having dates and progressions attached to them. And, from what I pick up from younger members of the family, Frozen II was unneeded and was only a massive hit because it was a sequel to Frozen and everyone wanted to see it. But having done so, the reaction seems to be, "oh, was that it?" I can’t see a third being anywhere near as well received.

But it’s interesting to see that the two films that really seem to have broken through are Tangled (as proven by winning our Best Of The Decade poll last year) and Moana, which seems to be getting lots of repeat viewing and recognition. Frozen was all about Let It Go, and as such is kind of a one-trick pony. As time wears on, the more consistent Tangled is the more fondly "liked", and Moana seems to be the one where they got all those tricks in the one project and made it all gel well for the entire movie. It’s quite a swan-song for Ron 'n' John to go out on!

[EricJ]

And, from what I pick up from younger members of the family, Frozen II was unneeded and was only a massive hit because it was a sequel to Frozen and everyone wanted to see it. But having done so, the reaction seems to be, "oh, was that it?" I can’t see a third being anywhere near as well received.

The first Frozen became the Holy Cult of Elsa, for a lot of reasons that ranged from having nothing to do with the film to being just plain bonehead-wrong.
And while I'm not up on all the troubled history of F2 from the making-of's, by the end, seemed like Jennifer Lee, now the high JK Rowling-like Grand Poobette of the cult as well as Empowered Role-Model Of Women In Hollywood running the studio, wanted to make the sequel for literally no other reason than that Elsa needed to be upgraded from Queen to Gaia-Like Nature Goddess by the last reel.
We know where she'll end up in a third movie, and that's how the fangirls want it...

Still, it was refreshing to have a sequel that didn't male-bash for...most of the movie, Kristoff's poor lonely reindeer song and new equivalent girl-shy/lonely-reindeer pal notwithstanding.

As time wears on, the more consistent Tangled is the more fondly "liked", and Moana seems to be the one where they got all those tricks in the one project and made it all gel well for the entire movie. It’s quite a swan-song for Ron 'n' John to go out on!

Moana had a good heroine, and a star-driven sidekick (they could make a character out of the Rock the way they could make one out of Robin Williams or James Woods), they just...forgot to put anything ELSE in the movie on their way out.
I don't know whether Maui's wacky deconstructive "If you've got a dress and an animal..." joke was Jennifer's or Ron & John's, but somebody was clearly wanting the movies to move off of the post-Tiana return of princesses.

[Farerb]

From what I heard they didn't want to make Frozen II but Iger made them, don't know if that's true.

Considering that Moana was made under Lasseter, I'm going to say that Jennifer Lee had nothing to do with that film. IMO it was one of M&C's jokes, similar to how Hercules made fun of merchandising.

Moana's plot was simple and straightforward, but simple doesn't necessarily mean bad. The Great Mouse Detective is simple but it's still a good film. Anyway to me Moana's complexity comes in the form of its three dimensional characters and the strong them of identity that connects them. Sometimes overcomplicating things might just ruin a film as we could see with the bloated plot of The Princess and the Frog - they meant well there, but it seemed like they threw in every idea they had.

[ShyViolet]

Yes, good observation on Princess; it definitely had a “stuffed” feel to it. Although strangely enough, I think the serious/comedic tone of the film was handled very well and balanced pretty much just right. There was just TOO MUCH STUFF in there.

In my opinion the plot device that most needed to go was without a doubt that glow worm guy! Lol I can’t even remember his name. We already had plenty of good-natured comic relief in Charlotte, Glow worm guy was total overkill!

[Farerb]

Yes. The Princess and the Frog had too much characters:
-Tiana
-Naveen
-Dr. Facilier
-Louis
-Ray
-Charlotte
-Mr. La Bouff
-Mama Odie
-Lawrence
-Eudora
-Stella
-Juju
-The Fenner Brothers
-Reggie, Darnell, and Two-Fingers

[EricJ]

From what I heard they didn't want to make Frozen II but Iger made them, don't know if that's true.

Judging by how we got Cars 2 and Toy Story 4, it's...PROBABLY true.
Like Ralph, it would have gotten one anyway, but Iger likes to believe Disney's line that movie sequels are classified as, quote, "character marketing", and loves to announce marketing, whether the animators know about it yet or not.

In my opinion the plot device that most needed to go was without a doubt that glow worm guy! Lol I can’t even remember his name.

And even though I know it was based on an unrelated fantasy book where the characters run from two frog-hunting witches, did we really NEED the Three Bears Hunters as obligatory Looney-fan animator shoutout?

We already had plenty of good-natured comic relief in Charlotte, Glow worm guy was total overkill!

I wouldn't call Charlotte "good-natured" comic relief, as she was the Eisner-era whipping-girl for any of our daughters "foolish" enough to dream about being princesses and married off into domestic slavery, and the Nth joke of seeing her mascara run at the party started to get a little female-comedy mean-spirited.
Every time she (loudly) appeared on screen, you could see the big flashing subliminal sign of "Girls, be single, don't be an IDIOT like her!"

Like the final draft of Enchanted, it's nice to know that Disney finally got over its overcompensating, um, issues now that Lasseter was in and Eisner was out.

[Ben]

Charlotte always reminded me of Darla Dimple grown up...

[droosan]

.. but PatF is set in 1926, while CDD is set in 1939 (ish) .. so .. 'identical cousins', maybe..?


OR!


Circa 1930, Miss LaBouff marries hot-shot Hollywood producer 'Everett Q. Dimple' .. and they have a daughter, named D-