DC Universe Animated Original Movies

[Buzz Bumble]

No, no, no, no ... we all know Catwoman is Batman's "love interest".

[Randall]

http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Unlimited- ... +unlimited

Well, this toy tie-in look gosh-awful, so even a DC nut like myself was planning to skip it. BUT, it looks like this is the disc where Warner is finally putting out the DC Nation shorts as a bonus, plus other shorts. Looks like I'll want to have this after all.

The toy line looks alright, though. Love this set:
http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Unlimited- ... +unlimited

[GeorgeC]

Yeah,

The new Batman stuff looks awful! The designs are awful and it looks like they're patterning it after the junk that's airing on Disney XD (Ultimate Spider-Man, the new Avengers series). It's very apparent that it's a toy-driven show... yeah, most animated shows do have a product tie-in but when it's overly obvious that they're trying to sell toys the resulting series usually aren't that good.

If DC/WB Animation can't get Batman right, there's a problem... To be honest, the last couple of Batman movies after Dark Knight Returns have been mediocre to awful. I haven't picked up a one of them because the trailers look bad and they've been based on the newer Batman comics from the last 5-7 years which I have not cared for.

I don't particularly sense any care and love in the new product. Honestly, this is a totally different attitude from the consistency I saw on display in Batman:TAS, Superman:TAS, JL/JLU, and Batman: The Brave and Bold. Those were great shows made by people who loved the characters and old comics. There's been a turnover in creative teams and a corporate-driven attitude (by WB) to ram the DC characters into new TV series and direct-to-video features. Either way, the final product has not been very good for a while.

There's tons of older storylines (Flash of Two Worlds, Elseworld classics like Gotham by Gaslight, Superman:Red Son) that would be more appealing and better to adapt than any of the DC-52 junk...

The whole DC-52 business looks like it's coming to pieces fairly soon... DC-52 felt like a committee-driven thing commissioned by people who don't understand or appreciate comic book history. It's been demographed and agenda'd to death. (That's really good source material for new films and TV series --- NOT!) It's been shlock for the most part. Yeah, another line revamp in less than 5 years! It is the 30th Anniversary of the Crisis on Infinite Earths maxi-series and DC wants to tie into that as well as pacify the large percentage of remaining comic books fans who DO NOT like the post-2011 DC comic book line. Of course, the damage has already been done... I figure the number of people buying comics today might be 100,000 (English language) in a good month... for all of North America.

[Randall]

That new Batman movie looks just ugly, doesn't it? Sure, it's just a long toy commerical, but at least The Legendary Super Powers Show used Jose Luis Garcia Lopez's art as a design springboard.

The New52 has mostly been a pathetic failure, I'm sad to say, though sales started strong. Some of the most interesting concepts were the first to be cancelled, and now hardly any of the original 52 is still running.

The newest partial relaunch they've just announced actually looks a bit promising, but I think I'm about done collecting monthly titles. Still, it's nice to see DC inviting fresh writers in, instead of reusing the same old hacks from the pre-52 DCU or even the 1990s Marvel days.

[GeorgeC]

To be honest,

Most of the REALLY GOOD comic book writers have worked at both Marvel and DC... and I've met a few of these guys. These are solid comic creators who had their hey-days in the 1970s and 1980s and they were very good writers. Guys like Len Wein, Roger Stern, Louise Simonson (Walt's wife) just to name a few. John Byrne -- egotistical and unlikeable as he is -- was also very good and consistent through most of the 1980s and into the early 1990s.

I still think the best run the original X-Men comic ever had was the three-year run Claremont and Byrne did together... (I've read it in reprints; this is the one time I like the X-Men otherwise I don't particularly like the comic even if a few of the characters are favorites. Hint: I like redheads.) That run produced the original 'Dark Phoenix Saga' and 'Days of Future Past'. The original comic versions of those stories are far superior to the adaptations in animation and live-action but it goes to show how influential those storylines were. They've been retooled and sequeled in the comics alone at least 4-5 times by my count. Nobody's topped the original stories, IMHO. Even the original art by Byrne and Austin is still laid out better and a few of those X-Men covers are classics.

(Sad to say that one of the things I find very lacking in comics today are the covers... They're just not thought out very well. That seems to be a lost art in addition to good character design...)

A lot of those people went on to DC and helped retool the DC Universe and tried to make it appeal to more fans in the second half of the 1980s and early 1990s. It's debateable how creatively successful that was but it was a period when Superman topped comic book sales for the first time in decades and some of the best-known, best-reviewed Batman stories were produced. Right around that time was also when The Flash (Wally West) became a readable, fun comic. The Flash for most of the 1990s was an underrated comic. (It was much better during Mark Waid's first run; his second and third runs and Geoff Johns' were not that good, IMHO.)

Now as for the creators who debuted in the 1990s -- to be honest, I really have not cared for much of what has happened after 1990. The bulk of what has been adapted for DC animation was pre-1990. There are not a lot of great storylines after 1990... There hasn't been a great Batman villain created for at least a quarter-century and that's true for most other characters.

I'm still puzzled as to why some of the Elseworld stories have not been adapted. They will most likely never adapt COIE because of the logistics (the storyline is already unworkable and it would have to be pared to death; this was done for the much simpler 'Secret Wars' storyline in the mid-1990s Spider-Man animated series and few people like that adaptation) and nobody-in-charge seems to have seriously considered adapting 'Kingdom Come' which I know is on the top ten adaptation request lists for a bunch of people.

[GeorgeC]

Ouch... the latest direct-to-video animated movie got panned...

http://thedigitalbits.com/item/justice- ... tlantis-bd


Don't buy this disc for the extras... The Brave & the Bold and Justice League are available in their own series sets. Heck, if you really think you need it, Justice League's first two seasons are out on Blu ray, too.

As for this film... Gee, there hasn't been anything good based on the new DC-52 yet! (At the moment, it looks like it WILL get at least tweaked if not partially abandoned by the end of the year.) Well, Aquaman is not one of DC's brighter stars and it's not even because of the Superfriends TV series. Personally, I've always like the other (original) Fish-guy (The Sub-Mariner) better...

[Ben]

Seems WB even knew they had a stinker on their hands as it looks like several outlets (us included) didn't even get offered review screeners on this one.

[Randall]

I thought I panned Justice League: War, but George thought I was being far too generous! Son of Batman, while not exactly a New52 story, was even worse. I like to keep track of these things, though, so I still plan to watch the new JL movie just to see it. I haven't watched the Batman/Suicide Squad/Arkham one yet either.

I feel like the comics and the movies have the same problem: too much direction from the higher-ups, and not enough true creative people making the decisions.

Every time I see a Geoff Johns comic adaptation get green-lit, I roll my eyes. Geoff, of course, also overseas TV and movie adaptations for DC Entertainment. He's done some good comics work, but his JL is not his best, ranking barely above Jeph Loeb's Batman/Superman stuff, which also made for a couple bad adaptations.

[GeorgeC]

I'll state right now that I have NOT bought a single DC Animated film since Flashpoint Paradox. What I've read about the stories of the last four films and the little bits and teasers I've seen don't convince me to waste money and time on them.

As far as the DC/WB powers-that-be, there's something off right now. They had a good 15-16 year run at WB Animation where they produced solid adaptations of Batman, Superman, and Justice League. That is practically unheard of in other areas of entertainment or general industry! Apparently, the best producers and creative people have left and gone on to different companies and projects. Justice League and the last good Batman animated series (The Brave and The Bold) did a great job of introducing some of the more obscure and crazier characters in the DC Universe than any of the direct-to-video films have. I have a bad feeling we're going to see a lot more Batman films and "Justice League" films that are going to feel like they're produced by a committee shooting for a demographic that just isn't there... They're really over-thinking this stuff at times and not spending money well.

I dunno... There's a dozen stories -- and they're not all Batman or Superman stories -- that would make for great films. Most of those stories were created well before 2000. They're probably going to continue to use the Justice League brand name to sell stories that aren't centered around Batman or Superman just like they did for this Aquaman movie and The Flash/Flashpoint Paradox.

FYI, I'm not a huge fan of Johns or Loeb... I think they've done maybe 3-4 good stories apiece but by and large their work has been very average. Johns had 2 or 3 good story arcs in the Green Lantern comic but that was about it for me and I don't even think that work has aged particularly well... Loeb's best stuff has been done in collaboration with Tim Sale -- Superman for All Season, Batman: Dark Victory, Batman: Long Halloween. The graphic style of the Tim Sale art would probably translate well to animation IMHO...

I kind of prefer more graphic, stylized art like Bruce Timm's or Darwyn Cooke (somewhat like Timm but still a distinct style) versus this anime/Image stuff that they're doing in the last few films. Like any other kind of film, there'd probably be less complaints about the visuals if the stories and overall direction were better than they have been for a while!

And yeah, this latest film is the second DC animated film where people are complaining about the voice characterizations.

[jeason44]

cause she's a somebody and the before person was not? Lucy is good but I much prefer an already established voice.

[GeorgeC]

Not good, Not good, Not good, Not good!

Early advance review for Batman Vs. Robin is panning the film...

http://www.newsarama.com/24044-best-sho ... movie.html


Man, DC just cannot win with the last four or five films!
When they (DC/WB Animation) can't even do Batman right that's a BIG problem...!

I just wish they would stop trying to do films based off the DC-52 continuity/storylines.
(I have noticed that some of the more recent films have been going on sale a lot faster -- larger percentage price cuts; sometimes up to 50% than they used to... You can find them on sale easily $10 below MRSP. I have a feeling that the last few have NOT been selling well...)

I don't think there's been anything good that's come out of that mess on home video!

Maybe they'll commission a decent Batman film in time for the 25th anniversary of Batman: The Animated Series. I think a lot of people would like to see another visit to THAT version of Batman.

(Not that I object to the Adam West/Batman '66 animated film... I think another take that ISN'T a spin-off of the current comics is long overdue! That's as valid as B:TAS and welcome, IMHO.)

[Randall]

Ouch. Looks like Batman Vs. Robin shares a lot in common with the terrible Son of Batman (which was the last one we got a screener for). You're right, George--- it's been a few misses in a row for these movies. The last good one was the Dark Knight Returns 2-parter. At least half of the 20+ DC animated movies have been good to great, but it largely depends on the source material, too, as well as the movie's director. Too often lately, the movies have been based on bad Johns or Loeb stories, or simply focus too much on ridiculous, bloody fights.

The Batman '66 film should be a breath of fresh air!

[GeorgeC]

Rand,

It HAS to be the people in charge of these productions AND the writers.

That has to be main reason why the last 4-5 WB/DC Animation direct-to-video features have been so uninspiring, uninteresting, and let's just say it -- mediocre, at best. I kind of wonder how long they'll continue production on these films if the trend continues. There has to be a point where the sales slide enough that they decide to pull the plug on these projects and shelve the animated direct-to-video projects for a while -- or they at least become less regular than they are now. It really might be for the best for them to slow down and just develop a good story or at least choose something better to adapt than DC-52! (I can barely look at the comics now when I pass by them in Barnes & Noble... The character designs are LOUSY!) There's 70+years of DC Comics stories to choose from and there have to be several dozen that would make excellent films if the adaptations are done right and they don't screw around and tinker with the storylines and characterizations too much...

I personally wish they would leave the costumes alone and just use the designs that were regularly used in the comics before 2011... Yeesh! There was no reason to change The Flash's, Superman's, or Wonder Woman's outfits (and most of the villains') whatsoever! All those extra lines and other junk they put in -- as well as changed colors (see Wonder Woman) -- serves no purpose!

(Funny thing is that they're STILL using the pre-52 designs on T-shirts, mugs, and just about everything else outside of the movies, comics, and videogame spin-offs. Does the product licensing department know something the comic publishing division HASN'T figure out yet???)

The DC-52 characters redesigns I feel were just the head artist/J.L.-you-know-who and DC producers doing something to make a mark (and satisfy their egoes)... I really don't think most of those guys are better character designers than Jack Kirby, Carmine Infantino, Joel Shuster, Steve Ditko, John Buscema, or John Romita, Sr. The old comic book artists KNEW how to design superheroes! Going by the newer comics with 'redesigned, improved, BETTER' -- I don't even want to finish that statement. I really think GOOD character design -- particularly superheroes -- is a lost art. It's too bad that mentality had to go into the newer animated films now.

During the Alan Burnett/Paul Dini/Bruce Timm era that lasted nearly 20 years (approx. 1990-2012) they had a fantastic amount of talent in just about every aspect of production for their shows and movie spin-offs. These guys and the people that worked with them (voiceover, casting/voice director, all the writers, various artists in various things, AND fantastic support from producers/executives who seemed to give a darn about the final product at least half the time) were why there was such a huge consistency for just around 20 years.

(Sure, the Timm group DID occasionally tweak the character designs a bit to make them easier to work with for animation BUT they generally respected the original designs and DIDN'T change the characters so much that -- in most cases -- they were unrecognizable AND ugly. There were very few really bad character designs during the Timm era. On Batman: The Brave and The Bold, the costume designs AND the general character art style was even MORE faithful to the original comics! B&B was mimicking MULTIPLE comic book artist styles -- Dick Sprang obviously, Jack Kirby, Carmine Infantinto, general late 1950s/early 1960s DC art = okay, I DON'T remember EVERY artist's name! -- and doing this very successfully... and the show STILL looked great, probably better because the original character styles already worked!)

I gotta tell you the truth... I have NOT seen that long a winning streak in any other media/franchise series!

(Even Star Trek petered out in the 1990s because of back-to-back shows set in the Next Generation timeline and finally ended in 2002 because hardly anybody watched ST: Enterprise. It was TOO MUCH for 15 straight years. They SHOULD have taken a break earlier than they did and not done another ST film or TV show for at least 3-5 years. TNG was the show most people loved; the others were treated by fans like red-headed stepchildren and the fanbase for those shows were progressively far smaller than it was for TNG. Right now, it looks like the the original Star Trek IS the most popular Trek series again -- thanks to the Hi-Def remastered episode re-releases on TV and the last two films as much as I despise most of what was in them = that ain't the Star Trek I grew up with! That's Trek Wars if ya get my drift! I kind of wonder if it's time for WB/DC Animation to take a break and reassess what they're doing... Paramount HAD to do that with Star Trek for almost a decade.)

The people that made those shows, for the most part (with a few notable exceptions -- but I'm not naming names), seemed to LOVE what they were doing... They were mostly fans of the original comics and even if they weren't familiar with the original comics

(I'd imagine most of the voice actors with the exception of Mark Hamill -- who has admitted he's a semi-recovered comic book geek -- haven't read the old books)

they loved doing these projects! There's NO WAY that you can have that kind of consistency for that long unless most of the people like what they're doing and take extra care in their work. The stuff I've been reading/hearing from other people OR the little bits I've seen online suggest that's NOT the case with the current WB/DC animated projects.

It's easy for people on the outside to see this... I just wonder WHY they (WB/DC) would spend millions of dollars to develop a TV show or series of films when they probably have the names of the people who produced consistently excellent work on a Rolodex. Why HAVEN'T they called back the guys that did B:TAS, S:TAS, and Justice League/Unlimited????!?!?? Is it really as bad as putting the people who suck up the best in charge or have they forgotten who did what because they haven't had a conversation with those people (Dini/Timm/others group) within the last five minutes?!?!? IS there so much of an executive/producer turnover at these studios/production companies that nobody remembers ANYBODY from 5, 10 years ago?

(I've actually kind of heard that's true in the comic book industry to a large extent. Apparently, there are lot of creators -- mainly writers -- from the 1970s, 1980s, and early 1990s that can't find regular work in comics now because they were 'away from comics for too long' writing screenplays and novels and in the interim the comic book editors they actually worked with and knew the best have moved onto higher positions within DC/Marvel or have left the company altogether... It's sad --- because unless they completely burned out => see Chris Claremont <= they generally still write a heck of a lot better than most of the writers today do!)

I think we can safely say that consistency that they once had is gone now... 4-5 critical (and I suspect likely sales) flops in a row is NOT a hideous coincidence.

(And I hate to say this, but the biggest DC fanboys can be just as bad and uncritical as the Marvel Zombies... If you're not even getting the Batman fans on board with the new Batman films then you have a huge problem with the animation production team and the writers!)

And it's not just Bruce Timm leaving regular exec producing that did the series in. Practically everybody else who was of major consequence left WB/DC Animation some time before or after Timm did, too.

I don't think Paul Dini, for instance has worked on a WB/DC Animation project for years now! The last thing he might have done for them might been a script for Batman: The Brave and the Bold. I'm fairly certain he wrote at least one or two episodes during those show's run. B & B was NOT Dini/Timm series but they still had a lot of great talent on that show and they took a definitive looser, FUNNER tone with that show and ran with it... and it did NOT degenerate into the kind of stupidity and condescending junk that OTHER major comic book company regularly shovels out

(see Disney XD)

and HAS done for as long as I can remember. The DC animated TV series were consistently high quality and unless you really were a Zombie you saw that!

(Yes, there was a partial geek-slam in that statement -- but it's for uncritical people who just accept every piece of slop put in front of them; I don't have money to do that and I personally can't be that uncritical -- but only people who have bought comics for decades would understand what I just said! To be fair, the live-action films from that other company HAVE been consistently better than the Distinguished Competition's live-action films for over a decade now...)

[Randall]

I agree. The leadership just isn't there. Some of the capable old hands are still around, but with Timm, Dini, and McDuffie (R.I.P.) no longer there, it's the higher-ups calling the shots now. Johns, the DC exec who overseas these things, pushes the New 52 stuff, including of course his own work (which I'm sure earns him royalties as well). Meanwhile, great older stories are left untouched. Really, if I just read the story last month, why would I want to see a video of it right away? Obviously, it's to push graphic novel sales, and the most current stuff dominates the bookstore shelves. Thus, ego and sales trumps creativity. That's nothing new, but in this era of corporate synergy, it's worse than ever.

I understand that we can't have an Animal Man feature, but there are lots of great old stories with headliners (esp. JLA) that could be commercially viable.

The latest movies have tended to lean more towards bloody over-the-top violence, or are trying too hard to be edgy/kewl. Not all of the earlier DC films were winners, either (Doomsday, which launched the line, was particularly weak), but at least there was a mix of flops and winners, with the winners leading by a nose. Now, the quality seems to be going downhill. Even aside from the stories, the look of the animation has become less appealing, with poorly-drawn (or inconsistently drawn) characters, and that awful "diffuse lighting" look.

Batman: Brave and The Bold is the most awesome DC cartoon in history, by the way. But Young Justice and Green Lantern were also extremely well done. Too bad they were cancelled too soon. The toys just weren't selling, I guess. (Which brings up another sore point...)

[GeorgeC]

I agree. The leadership just isn't there. Some of the capable old hands are still around, but with Timm, Dini, and McDuffie (R.I.P.) no longer there, it's the higher-ups calling the shots now. Johns, the DC exec who overseas these things, pushes the New 52 stuff, including of course his own work (which I'm sure earns him royalties as well).

***********************************

Batman: Brave and The Bold is the most awesome DC cartoon in history, by the way. But Young Justice and Green Lantern were also extremely well done. Too bad they were cancelled too soon. The toys just weren't selling, I guess. (Which brings up another sore point...)

I have suspected that some of the powers-that-be were pushing trades of reprints of their work.

Not even guys who are legitimate legends get that kind of treatment... Stan Lee sure isn't treated that well by the publishing arm of Marvel and he's the closest to a comic book ambassador/pope today!

It always suspicious to me, too, to see Geoff Johns get ALL his DC stuff reprinted. I know a lot of people like his work but he also has a fair amount of detractors and critics that would agree with me on a lot of things: the plots have logical lapses and his stories are filled with graphic violence and some unbelievable (not great) characterizations of characters. Some of the GL stuff he did I don't think holds up very well... I try not to get personal but honestly the whole reprint thing smells to me, too...

Yep, the royalties issue is something that I've had this fishy feeling that um ---there's definitely a conflict of interest when someone is in a position to get their work reprinted (=instant cash for themselves).

***************************************************************************

As for Batman: B&B... it IS my second-favorite Batman animated series and the closest animated interpretation of MY favorite comic book version of Batman -- the Batman from the 1940s and early 1950s. IF there had been a Golden Age Hollywood Batman animated series, I hope it would have been like this TV series. I loved seeing the classic Dick Sprang/Sheldon Moldoff Batman designs adapted for animation. Batman doesn't always have to be Kevin Conroy but the voice SHOULD fit the interpretation and Diedrich Bader was an excellent choice for the B&B Batman.

I particularly like the episodes with Plastic Man, The Doom Patrol, the Justice Society of America, the first three Flashes (Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, Kid Flash/Wally West), and the episodes with Guy Gardner. Gardner is a great comedic character... Yes, he is a butthead BUT he's a surprisingly effective butthead that gets the job done!

I got a kick out of how they handled Aquaman for that series, too. It was funny to hear John DiMaggio (aka "Bender") so foppishly over-the-top but I actually liked Aquaman that way... The episode where he was on vacation with Mera and their sulking son was hilarious... One of the great moments was when they passed another motor home with a SUPER-VILLAIN [the Sportsman?] going on vacation with his family! At least he wasn't being played like he was Namor, The Sub-Mariner; that's a very lazy way to do Aquaman but unfortunately that's how a lot of writers and fans see the character.

Plastic Man is a character I have a fondness for and it was eerie to hear Tom Kenny do the voice of that character. His interpretation is pretty much HOW I expected Plastic Man to sound! That's only happened in one or two other cases for me... I always felt Hal Jordan/GL should sound like Nathan Fillion and guess who they cast for that Green Lantern a couple of years ago?