Tangled (formerly Rapunzel)
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)
Disney's Aladdin is basically Puss in Boots.
Puss helps his destitute master to present himself to a princess as the 'Marquis of Carabas'. But when an ogre (who is capable of transforming into powerful beasts) kidnaps the princess, the day is saved by tricking the ogre into assuming the form of something which can be easily conquered.
Puss = Genie
Marquis of Carabas = Prince Ali
Ogre = Jafar
There's actually rather little of the 1001 Arabian Nights 'Aladdin' tales in the movie.
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re: Tangled .. I wish Disney hadn't changed the movie's title. I agree that keeping the title simply Rapunzel would be best, if only for the sake of 'tradition' (and a fair amount of 'brand recognition').
But with this movie now mere months from release , I sincerely doubt they'd change it back for anybody, or anything. Disney Marketing is in 'full-steam-ahead mode', now. Deals are being made, and serious money is being spent .. all of it with the Tangled title attached.
The movie is either good, or it isn't. A particular title would neither help nor hinder that.
Puss helps his destitute master to present himself to a princess as the 'Marquis of Carabas'. But when an ogre (who is capable of transforming into powerful beasts) kidnaps the princess, the day is saved by tricking the ogre into assuming the form of something which can be easily conquered.
Puss = Genie
Marquis of Carabas = Prince Ali
Ogre = Jafar
There's actually rather little of the 1001 Arabian Nights 'Aladdin' tales in the movie.
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re: Tangled .. I wish Disney hadn't changed the movie's title. I agree that keeping the title simply Rapunzel would be best, if only for the sake of 'tradition' (and a fair amount of 'brand recognition').
But with this movie now mere months from release , I sincerely doubt they'd change it back for anybody, or anything. Disney Marketing is in 'full-steam-ahead mode', now. Deals are being made, and serious money is being spent .. all of it with the Tangled title attached.
The movie is either good, or it isn't. A particular title would neither help nor hinder that.
Last edited by droosan on February 20th, 2010, 12:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rapunzel or Tangled
No normal person will do thisDusterian wrote: "oh, I saw a princess movie, the story of Rapunzel. Why was it called something different? I was expecting a totally new, twisted, something else!"
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)
Exactly. This whole fanboy concept that the adaptation should in no way differ from the original is ludicrous. The Great Mouse Detective is a play on Sherlock Holmes, The Princess and the Frog should have been The Frog Princess, Apocalypse Now is based on heart of Darkness... All adaptations take license with the material, that's what makes it an adaptation. The only way to remain entirely faithful to the book would be to reprint it. Robin Hood is not based on classic literature but a debated historical figure who may or may not have been entirely fabricated and The Jungle Book is virtually unrecognisable from its literary source. So focusing on the title as the only betrayal seems rather like nitpicking to me. I don't understand the insistence that "this how Disney has always done it, this is how it should always be done." Why such frustration at trying something new?
As much as you may claim that Lilo and Stitch didn't contain Disney themes, I'd have to argue the opposite. It featured the parent-less family, the importance of love and friendship, laughter for every tear... Even water colour backgrounds which are far more of a homage to the classic Disney than any other Disney film in recent memory. Walt Disney may or may not have liked it, I don't really see how you can make a judgment either way. Walt didn't like most of the films he himself worked on, so this would hardly be a revelation. And as for disliking sci-fi with aliens? On what information is this based? Based on that principle Disney also didn't like genies seeing as he never made a film about them.
As everyone has said, the entire subject is moot until people see the film itself. If a person is unable to let go of past traditions and accept the odd change here and there, then they will never be satisfied. Seeing the amount of problems Disney have had recently, a name change should be the least of any fans worries.
As much as you may claim that Lilo and Stitch didn't contain Disney themes, I'd have to argue the opposite. It featured the parent-less family, the importance of love and friendship, laughter for every tear... Even water colour backgrounds which are far more of a homage to the classic Disney than any other Disney film in recent memory. Walt Disney may or may not have liked it, I don't really see how you can make a judgment either way. Walt didn't like most of the films he himself worked on, so this would hardly be a revelation. And as for disliking sci-fi with aliens? On what information is this based? Based on that principle Disney also didn't like genies seeing as he never made a film about them.
As everyone has said, the entire subject is moot until people see the film itself. If a person is unable to let go of past traditions and accept the odd change here and there, then they will never be satisfied. Seeing the amount of problems Disney have had recently, a name change should be the least of any fans worries.
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)
I just personally prefer Rapunzel to Tangled, but the name change isn't going to stop e from seeing it. And reading all the discussion about the name change has reminded me about how lots of people at the time were gobsmacked and were mocking the title 'The Emperor's New Groove' and I think that is one title that tells the audience the type of movie they are waling into. Perhaps Tangled is telling us to expect a romantic comedy relying a lot on the comedy as opposed to the romantic aspect of Rapunzel's princess story.
I too just want a trailer, as looking at that still of Rapunzel and Flynn everyday makes me yearn to see them move. I think I'm actually more buzzed for this movie than I was for Princess & Frog at the same time.
I too just want a trailer, as looking at that still of Rapunzel and Flynn everyday makes me yearn to see them move. I think I'm actually more buzzed for this movie than I was for Princess & Frog at the same time.
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Re: Rapunzel or Tangled
Walt Disney actually had plenty of say regarding The Jungle Book's comedic angle. The original story treatment Bill Peet wrote was more dramatic as were Terry Gilkyson's songs. However, Disney instead decided to make it a more comic picture and assigned the Sherman Brothers to write a bunch of new songs and threw away Gilkyson's songs (leaving only "The Bear Necessities").Dusterian wrote:I don't know how much say he had in The Jungle Book's more loose, comic nature as he was, well, dying, but Robin Hood didn't do so good
And Robin Hood did very well in its initial release (even if the critics weren't particularly kind to it), but like a lot of films from the post-Walt, pre-Little Mermaid era, the studio seems to view it as a flop for some reason, I don't know why.
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Rapunze or Tangled
Maybe, maybe it could have had another title, not wacky and comic enough to not be Aladdin, either, and what's important is they were able to, and did, keep that title. By the way, the wacky humor and pop culture references was more derived from the genie, who knew things from every time and place. It made sense, it fit within the story, it's just whoever wrote Aladdin couldn't know what kind of things would happen in the cultures of the future that the genie would know about.
And if Dsiney is going to let people know the film is the stoyr of Rapunzel...then why change the name in the first place? They're tricking them. Because otherwise if the story is "Rapunzel"...shouldn't it then be called, "Rapunzel"?
Droosan, good find, but the genie didn't trick Jafar, Aladdin did, and Jafar did not turn into something easily defeatable, but recieved the same power as the genie, complete with the imprisonment. That's not getting defeated the same way. Appreciate originality, especially when it does come from the story itself (a wish, turning into another genie, all related to and from the original Aladdin, etc.)
Chernabog, woah, The Great Mouse Detective is not based on any particular story of Sherlock Holmes, just the general idea of him, with some clever character references for humour. The Princess and the Frog was a whacked out, totally different take on The Frog Prince, it was not that story very much at all, so it rightfully had a different title! I very much like license in adaptations, but any story, especially one as bare as a fairy tale, can be faithful to the source and still have lots of creativity, because there's so much room to get creative aside from what is described. Stories can only describe up to a point, the rest is up to your imagination. So movies show what someone imagined, from reading a book, or from real life, or a completely original idea, etc. Which means that I'm a little mad at the Prince being a bandit in this version, but I got over it, and that has nothing to do with a title like Tangled. It's still enough of the story of Rapunzel to be called Rapunzel.
Disney trying something new? I already told you that they can make a new kind of movie if they want, but when they make a fairy tale, do it right (am I mad at the way they did Princess and the Frog, yup, but that's not the issue here. Also, I wouldn't mind if they made their own original fairy tale and did whatever they want to that, it's the classics that need to stay classic). And they already made this film the classic story of Rapunzel so that the title "Rapunzel" fits, so it's too late to change it and do something new! Like change the title for no good reason accept lamely try to get more people to see it by calling it what it's not!
And no one here is acknowledging that it is still only the previews, the trailers and commercials and other marketing that they need to sell the film, and that will sell the film, not the title?
I'm pretty sure Walt would not have approved of Stitch's wackiness and behavior. He was behaving in a way Walt would never have in his films. Yea, he turned good later, that's not the point, I'm talking about the exact way he was, how weird and rude and violent and destructive and one could say sick. And I think you and I both know he probably wouldn't have ever done anything with aliens in his films. Those aren't the kinds of stories he wanted to tell. Yea, we don't know for absolutely certain...but come on, that doesn't seem like anything he would ever do, you know that. It was Chris Sanders mainly, not two directors working together to keep Walt's kind of stories...it was Chris Sanders' wacky story he just had to make into a movie somehow.
And if Dsiney is going to let people know the film is the stoyr of Rapunzel...then why change the name in the first place? They're tricking them. Because otherwise if the story is "Rapunzel"...shouldn't it then be called, "Rapunzel"?
Droosan, good find, but the genie didn't trick Jafar, Aladdin did, and Jafar did not turn into something easily defeatable, but recieved the same power as the genie, complete with the imprisonment. That's not getting defeated the same way. Appreciate originality, especially when it does come from the story itself (a wish, turning into another genie, all related to and from the original Aladdin, etc.)
Chernabog, woah, The Great Mouse Detective is not based on any particular story of Sherlock Holmes, just the general idea of him, with some clever character references for humour. The Princess and the Frog was a whacked out, totally different take on The Frog Prince, it was not that story very much at all, so it rightfully had a different title! I very much like license in adaptations, but any story, especially one as bare as a fairy tale, can be faithful to the source and still have lots of creativity, because there's so much room to get creative aside from what is described. Stories can only describe up to a point, the rest is up to your imagination. So movies show what someone imagined, from reading a book, or from real life, or a completely original idea, etc. Which means that I'm a little mad at the Prince being a bandit in this version, but I got over it, and that has nothing to do with a title like Tangled. It's still enough of the story of Rapunzel to be called Rapunzel.
Disney trying something new? I already told you that they can make a new kind of movie if they want, but when they make a fairy tale, do it right (am I mad at the way they did Princess and the Frog, yup, but that's not the issue here. Also, I wouldn't mind if they made their own original fairy tale and did whatever they want to that, it's the classics that need to stay classic). And they already made this film the classic story of Rapunzel so that the title "Rapunzel" fits, so it's too late to change it and do something new! Like change the title for no good reason accept lamely try to get more people to see it by calling it what it's not!
And no one here is acknowledging that it is still only the previews, the trailers and commercials and other marketing that they need to sell the film, and that will sell the film, not the title?
I'm pretty sure Walt would not have approved of Stitch's wackiness and behavior. He was behaving in a way Walt would never have in his films. Yea, he turned good later, that's not the point, I'm talking about the exact way he was, how weird and rude and violent and destructive and one could say sick. And I think you and I both know he probably wouldn't have ever done anything with aliens in his films. Those aren't the kinds of stories he wanted to tell. Yea, we don't know for absolutely certain...but come on, that doesn't seem like anything he would ever do, you know that. It was Chris Sanders mainly, not two directors working together to keep Walt's kind of stories...it was Chris Sanders' wacky story he just had to make into a movie somehow.
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I don't think Walt would've disapproved of Stitch--as long as he got plenty of look at the aww "lost!" good-Stitch from the end of the movie, who just wanted to belong to the happy surfing family (remember, it's all about that tear!)
I can also, however, practically HEAR the voice of story-master Walt looking over Chris and Dean's rushes in the sweatbox and saying "Now, we've gotta get one last chance to get this straightened out, boys; we've got this darn thing going in one direction after another...Just whose story is this, anyway?"
(And yes, I mean hear, thanks to those Walt recordings on the Fantasia disk, and that imitator on the Bambi disk...Can't you, too? )
Lasseter, meanwhile, would not have fired Chris & Dean outright, but there would've been a new first-time replacement director team on the project so fast it would make their heads surf.
I can also, however, practically HEAR the voice of story-master Walt looking over Chris and Dean's rushes in the sweatbox and saying "Now, we've gotta get one last chance to get this straightened out, boys; we've got this darn thing going in one direction after another...Just whose story is this, anyway?"
(And yes, I mean hear, thanks to those Walt recordings on the Fantasia disk, and that imitator on the Bambi disk...Can't you, too? )
Lasseter, meanwhile, would not have fired Chris & Dean outright, but there would've been a new first-time replacement director team on the project so fast it would make their heads surf.
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Re: Rapunze or Tangled
Well, that's awfully apologetic. But it still doesn't make the Genie's Arsenio Hall impression any less cringe-inducing and anachronistic. In fact, it's funny that the Genie only did impressions of famous people from the late 20th century.Dusterian wrote:By the way, the wacky humor and pop culture references was more derived from the genie, who knew things from every time and place.
For the benefit of anyone who doesn't know, that film was based on a book (and its sequels) called Basil of Baker Street. They, uh, changed the name for the movie.Dusterian wrote:...The Great Mouse Detective is not based on any particular story of Sherlock Holmes, just the general idea of him...
Last edited by Randall on February 21st, 2010, 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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This is a great discussion with a lot of passion, but someone above is very right in that Disney's decision is final. With all the posters and marketing that will need to be ready for the release, all the title treatments will have been worked on for the past month or so, and all the petitions and arguments in the world will not change this - ultimately not groundshaking - choice.
Funny how none of this "disgust" was in evidence when the film was known as Rapunzel Unbraided, isn't it? No one started shouting and "telling" Disney that they should drop the Unbraided part. Some of us might not have liked it, and heck some of us could see that a title like that pointed to a comical take on the story.
"It's still enough of the story of Rapunzel to be called Rapunzel" someone said above. Oh yeah? And you know this because you've seen the story reels? Then you'll know how the first ten or so minutes are Rapunzel and the rest of the film is a totally new comical twist? Right. So the film should be called Rapunzel, then, but The Frog Prince was right to be called The Princess And The Frog? Okay, but I don't get that.
At the end of the day, I think I'd agree that I'd prefer the title to be Rapnuzel. But if the film is a riff on Rapunzel, as is indicated and has been almost since day one, then why call it Rapunzel? Enchanted was called that because it was about a situation, not called The Princess And The City. Tangled - and you have to admit that was the best of the bunch - could well be along the same lines, and only feature a girl by the name of Rapunzel in it.
What if Lilo And Stitch had been called something like Close Encounters Of The Furred Kind? We'd be none the wiser and still love the film as much. We wouldn't come out saying "well that should have been called Lilo And Stitch, after the characters". It's the same movie! As this will be, although it's been unfortunate to have been played out in public.
Basically, if Disney had remained schtum from the beginning and then announced "Tangled, a musical comedy take on the Rapunzel story", we'd all be overjoyed and dancing around the streets in anticipation, wondering what the new spin could be or what surprises lay in store.
As such, that's what we should be doing with Tangled. Sure, it doesn't "fit" with the fairytales of old, but then THIS IS A CG FEATURE, NOT A CLASSICALLY ANIMATED FILM. It was never going to be a direct fit with what has come before.
And Walt actually loved Ward Kimball's aliens.
Funny how none of this "disgust" was in evidence when the film was known as Rapunzel Unbraided, isn't it? No one started shouting and "telling" Disney that they should drop the Unbraided part. Some of us might not have liked it, and heck some of us could see that a title like that pointed to a comical take on the story.
"It's still enough of the story of Rapunzel to be called Rapunzel" someone said above. Oh yeah? And you know this because you've seen the story reels? Then you'll know how the first ten or so minutes are Rapunzel and the rest of the film is a totally new comical twist? Right. So the film should be called Rapunzel, then, but The Frog Prince was right to be called The Princess And The Frog? Okay, but I don't get that.
At the end of the day, I think I'd agree that I'd prefer the title to be Rapnuzel. But if the film is a riff on Rapunzel, as is indicated and has been almost since day one, then why call it Rapunzel? Enchanted was called that because it was about a situation, not called The Princess And The City. Tangled - and you have to admit that was the best of the bunch - could well be along the same lines, and only feature a girl by the name of Rapunzel in it.
What if Lilo And Stitch had been called something like Close Encounters Of The Furred Kind? We'd be none the wiser and still love the film as much. We wouldn't come out saying "well that should have been called Lilo And Stitch, after the characters". It's the same movie! As this will be, although it's been unfortunate to have been played out in public.
Basically, if Disney had remained schtum from the beginning and then announced "Tangled, a musical comedy take on the Rapunzel story", we'd all be overjoyed and dancing around the streets in anticipation, wondering what the new spin could be or what surprises lay in store.
As such, that's what we should be doing with Tangled. Sure, it doesn't "fit" with the fairytales of old, but then THIS IS A CG FEATURE, NOT A CLASSICALLY ANIMATED FILM. It was never going to be a direct fit with what has come before.
And Walt actually loved Ward Kimball's aliens.
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Yep, there was dislike, but that's what the title was and that's the kind of film it indicated. I see no difference in tone from Rapunzel Unbraided to Tangled. They're both pointing to a comic tone.
Chernabog...that line you didn't understand was from a message above...someone said that P&TF wasn't a literal translation from The Frog Prince and so it had rightfully had a different title.
And...before you all start to gang up on my comment: I'm actually in favor of the title being Rapunzel...IF the movie is basically that story. All the Disney versions take great liberties with their sources but essentially tell the same story. IF this is an animated version of Rapunzel, it should be called Rapunzel. But if it's an alternate take on the story and a more jokey title is actually MORE required (conversely, some might come out of a movie called Rapunzel and complain it wasn't that story at all) then that's what's best for the movie's chances commercially.
At the end of the day, Disney is going to call any film it makes by the title it thinks it can market to the widest audience, and there's little we can do to change that especially if the movie ISN'T directly the Rapunzel story. And whatever it's called, we want it to be a hit so that other films are made. Or, we can just keep complaining, try and make them change the name back, watch the film come out and have people complain that it's not Rapunzel, see it flop, and then complain again about the closing of Walt Disney Animation Studios.
Well, maybe, not quite...but it's just a name. So many films have gone through name changes. It's funny, but I was ALL for Rapunzel as a title, but the more this goes on, I'm actually finding myself not getting too twisted up about it. After all, wouldn't Chicken Little have benefited from being called something different to Chicken Little? That wasn't the Chicken Little story at all, just as Tangled may not be the Rapunzel story...and it might actually be that the Unbraided/Tangled approach is what is dictating these switches.
Chernabog...that line you didn't understand was from a message above...someone said that P&TF wasn't a literal translation from The Frog Prince and so it had rightfully had a different title.
And...before you all start to gang up on my comment: I'm actually in favor of the title being Rapunzel...IF the movie is basically that story. All the Disney versions take great liberties with their sources but essentially tell the same story. IF this is an animated version of Rapunzel, it should be called Rapunzel. But if it's an alternate take on the story and a more jokey title is actually MORE required (conversely, some might come out of a movie called Rapunzel and complain it wasn't that story at all) then that's what's best for the movie's chances commercially.
At the end of the day, Disney is going to call any film it makes by the title it thinks it can market to the widest audience, and there's little we can do to change that especially if the movie ISN'T directly the Rapunzel story. And whatever it's called, we want it to be a hit so that other films are made. Or, we can just keep complaining, try and make them change the name back, watch the film come out and have people complain that it's not Rapunzel, see it flop, and then complain again about the closing of Walt Disney Animation Studios.
Well, maybe, not quite...but it's just a name. So many films have gone through name changes. It's funny, but I was ALL for Rapunzel as a title, but the more this goes on, I'm actually finding myself not getting too twisted up about it. After all, wouldn't Chicken Little have benefited from being called something different to Chicken Little? That wasn't the Chicken Little story at all, just as Tangled may not be the Rapunzel story...and it might actually be that the Unbraided/Tangled approach is what is dictating these switches.
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Re: Tangled (Formerly Rapunzel)
Yeah I understand the context, I just don't understand the use of the word rightfully.
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I understand what you mean, I was being facetious. (It was actually a response to Dusterian anyhow). My concern is with the use of the word rightfully, as in "rightfully allowed or disallowed to use a title." As if it is some ancient teaching stretching back to the scriptures, thou shalt not alter the title of a film adaptation. No logic whatsoever.