Batman Begins

[Whippet Angel]

Me too! This is the very first time I've totally disagreed with his take on a film!

[GeorgeC]

I HATE live-action Batman.

Repeat -- I HATE these movies.

They take all the fantasy and great character designs out of the comics in favor of this "realistic approach" baloney that results in very boring films for me.

I LIVED in Chicago for 3 years! If I want to see Chicago, I'll GO there. I didn't need to see the city onscreen for 2.5 hours when I was watching The Dark Knight! So, strike one against this film's visuals.

(I'll give this to Burton -- as much as I had issues with the scripts and characterizations in his Batman films, at least they looked interesting and Gotham was played out as the Gothic travesty of a city that it SHOULD be. Christopher Nolan and his art directors are just plain lazy where this is concerned.)

The Bale Batman plays out as almost a Bond wannabe. That's not the type of film I really want to watch, either. Haven't been to a Bond film in the theater since forever (not my cup of tea), and obviously I have strong disagreements with both Bale and Nolan on the matter.

Ledger's Joker is creepy but got really annoying to me after a while. Difference from the comic book and other versions -- not really funny, and doesn't particularly see humor in what he's doing. That's a thing about Joker (the comics and animated versions) -- he thinks what he's doing is funny even as people around him get maimed. Another bit of disagreement I'm going to have with the screenwriter and director.

WB got its last bit of money out of me on live-action hero films. Unless I see something on home video that convinces me otherwise, I'm saving money on the next Batman, Superman, or other DC Comics superhero film that isn't animated. The live-action guys just don't understand these characters and the fantasy world they live in.

Another black-suited, plastic coated Batman wannabe driving a military SUV is not in my future.

It really creeps me out when animation people and fans say they prefer these film travesties to any of the fine Batman animated films that came out in the past 15 years...

[Randall]

On the other hand, I've gotten used to disagreeing with George.

(I like the animated films, too, but that doesn't keep me from liking something different.)

[Whippet Angel]

George, it seems like you're a fan of the comics and animated shows/films. Certainly nothing wrong with that, but you have to remember that the whole Batman franchise is so much MORE than that.

I've been a Bat-freak since I was about 6 or 7 (he just had a greater appeal to me than any of the other superhero type characters). I started off collecting comics. When I got tired of those, I started watching the animated series. When I was a bit older, I got into the 60's TV series. I realized that it was NOTHING like the animated series or comics, but I loved it anyway, as the campiness was very amusing. As for the films, I liked the two Burton-made ones, but I didn't care much for the other two (the one with George Clooney was the worst x___x ).

My point? Batman is just a character. A character that has been portrayed in many different mediums, for different types of audiences. You don't have to be a fan of them all (I never could get into Batman Beyond), but there really is no reason to be "creeped out" when a fan prefers one medium over another.

[ShyViolet]

Ledger's Joker is creepy but got really annoying to me after a while. Difference from the comic book and other versions -- not really funny, and doesn't particularly see humor in what he's doing. That's a thing about Joker (the comics and animated versions) -- he thinks what he's doing is funny even as people around him get maimed. Another bit of disagreement I'm going to have with the screenwriter and director.

Just curious George--how did you feel about Two-Face?


*****************************************

One thing I think is important to say when discussing all these Batman films is that I really hope Jack N's Joker is remembered as the great creation he was--Ledger's was all kinds of amazing, probably the best thing in the film (for me it's a tie between him and Two-Face) but I've read quite a few comments that stress how much "darker" Ledger's version is than Nicholson/Romero. (People in 1989 said the exact same thing about Jack's Joker vs. the 60s one.)

Ledger was a wonderful, psychopathic monster and yet there was almost a wounded quality to him, mixed with the menace and insanity. He was brilliant, there's no denying it.

But it doesn't make any sense to say that Nicholson's Joker was just "funny", and that's it-- because Nicholson much more than that. He was EXTREMELY menacing in many parts--how many people does this man kill for crying out loud? First, he kills Bruce's parents, then Eckhart, then Grissim, then gasses dozens of people to death in an art gallery, kills a man by impaling his throat with a pen (the pencil thing in this version was very probably a homage to that), electrocutes a man with a killer hand buzzer, gasses models, news reporters and then half of an entire city to death. I'll say that's pretty evil. And the most disturbing thing was that he looked like was having the time of his life through all of it.

It's so weird how people keep emphasizing how dark TDK is compared to other versions...I think it's just because the memory of the Schumaker films overshadows Burton's vision.

Batman Returns had plenty of death too--the Penguin kills babies for crying out loud (or plans to), and Selena Kyle gets pushed out a window. I think that somehow, maybe because the JS films "imitated" the production design and look of Burton's movies (very poorly, but still) the memory of Bat 1 and Bat 2 somehow got mixed up with Bat 3 and 4. But they are incredibly different films.

It's Schumaker's films that are "funny', and "over the top", like the 60s Batman camp. Burton's versions coudn't be further away.

[Josh]

Case in point: the party that the Joker crashes: Bats arrives, things start getting juicy and he has to leap out to save the girl, we think there's an action sequence about to begin, but no: they just land and...that's it!? Are we to believe the Joker then carried on partying upstairs with the other guests? Batman just went home? That was a real "<I>what?</I>" moment for me.

I think Joker just quickly left the fundraiser, because he later admits...

...,during the interrogation, that he thought Harvey Dent was Batman. When Batman left the fundraiser, Joker probably assumed there was no reason to stick around.

I figure Batman went back to the fundraiser to find Joker. However, Joker had already left. Considering the already-long length of the film, Nolan probably didn't feel those scenes - if that really was what happened - were necessary to show.

Still, I agree that Batman's and Joker's exits could have been explained better in the film.

I would love to see a longer cut of The Dark Knight, though. It's one of my favorite movies.

[Ben]

As I say, I think there's an amazingly brilliant director's cut in there somewhere, but what has been put out for now wasn't it.

[eddievalient]

Personally, I think it's fine as is. I had no trouble following it and never noticed the issues you brought up (although I agree that a director's cut would be interesting to see).

[Vernadyn]

Wow, ShyVi, your assessment of the "darkness" of Nolan's films vs. Burton's is spot on. I personally like both pairs of Batman films, but to characterize Burton's films as camp is nonsense. I liked The Dark Knight, but it's biggest flaws were its pacing (as Ben noted) and the music. There also was not enough exploration into Batman's character, and the Two-Face stuff did seem rushed near the end.

(Warning: Rant to follow)

As far as the music is concerned, I cannot really hear any JNH influence beyond the Two-Face music (which I did like). The problem of people associating Burton's films with Schumacher's seems to have influenced Zimmer's attitude, going as far in interviews as to call Elfman's theme as "jolly." (Notably, JNH doesn't say much in these interviews.)

To be sure, Elfman's music for Burton's films would have been out of place in Nolan's films. But what Zimmer and his pals came up with does not really work either. It would have been interesting to see what Elfman or Elliot Goldenthal would have done if they had had the chance to score Nolan's films; I'm sure they are both intelligent enough to realize that they would have to provide different music than that of their previous efforts in the franchise. (Despite the fact that Goldenthal's music for the Schumacher films was musically interesting, it did not connect for me. The disparate elements don't seem to flow and cohere the way it does, brilliantly, in Titus. On the other hand, his work for films like Alien 3 and Final Fantasy show that he has an exceptional talent for writing dark music.) Or even think about what JNH could have done by himself.

Then again, it is hard to tell exactly what Nolan asked for in the music. Not to totally bash Zimmer; I liked his scores for The Lion King and Prince of Egypt, and several scores of his (like Crimson Tide, Pirates 3) I find quite enjoyable.

[ShyViolet]

Wow, ShyVi, your assessment of the "darkness" of Nolan's films vs. Burton's is spot on.

Thanks Vernadyn!

The problem of people associating Burton's films with Schumacher's seems to have influenced Zimmer's attitude, going as far in interviews as to call Elfman's theme as "jolly." (Notably, JNH doesn't say much in these interviews.)

Really? Zimmer said this? Wow.... I think he's done some wonderful scores, of course, but the reason Elfman's scores are so iconic is the dark, soulful melodies that have such an underlying sense of tradgedy to them, mixed with that fantasy vibe which makes them even more poignant. Even the very "optimistic" Dick Tracy score had a kind of sadness to it in some parts.

Maybe Zimmer just got confused or wasn't really that big a fan of Bat 1/2--he might have just not remembered the scores for those films very well. (Surprising considering that they had such an impact on the scores of future movies.)

(Despite the fact that Goldenthal's music for the Schumacher films was musically interesting, it did not connect for me. The disparate elements don't seem to flow and cohere the way it does, brilliantly, in Titus.

Wow, he did that film?? Awesome! That's one of my favorite films and I LOVE the score to it.

There also was not enough exploration into Batman's character, and the Two-Face stuff did seem rushed near the end.

I totally loved TDK but the only thing that didn't totally meet my expectations is that

I really hoped Two-Face and Joker would have more interactions together....their conversation is the best scene in the whole film....I just wish that the "bond" between them had been developed a little further (especially since we never see them together again.)

Or even think about what JNH could have done by himself.

TDK score was cool...I found it exciting and even soulful in some scenes but I was so absorbed in the film that I didn't really pay THAT much attention to it. It didn't really seem much different from the BB score. Yes, it would have been REALLY cool to see what JNH would have come up with....what I love about his music is that every film is totally, totally different.

I think it's also fascinating how much the Nolan films are being celebrated by some as being great solely because of their realism, as if it was the only way to do Batman...as great as TDK is and as entertaining as BB was, there are lots of ways to do Batman. The classic Batman: The Animated Series took a page from Burton but is very much a vision in its own right, drawing upon the comics to a greater degree as well as the old Superman shorts. In many ways it's as different from Burton's (and Nolan's) film as the 60s camp version was. But it's very much accepted by fans.

*Mark Hammill was also very much his own Joker--a great mixture of earlier cartoon versions, Jack N. (to a degree) as well as a very unique sense of insanity/menace. If you put him side by side with Ledger, they're as different as they come...! But both do a great job with the Joker.

With comic book mythos, realism has its place, as does fantasy/allegory, as does camp. They're all valid--I'm not going to say equal, that all depends on taste. Funny, it's quite possible, even with the giant success that TDK is, that perhaps a few years down the line the realism will be out and people might start clamouring for an old-fashioned comic book....and someone else with a different vision will step in. Times change...but the essential heart of Batman is still there no matter what.

[Whippet Angel]

Times change...but the essential heart of Batman is still there no matter what.

Exactly what I was trying to say! Except you managed to say it in just one sentence.

[ShyViolet]

[Vernadyn]

You're welcome, ShyViolet. Your posts are always interesting.

Zimmer's jolly quote can be found at:

latimesblogs.latimes.com/extendedplay/2008/06/batman-the-dark.html

and at:

www.soundtrack.net/features/article/?id=256

It's important to note, however, that this may not necessarily be a negative comment on Zimmer's part, even if "jolly" is the last thing that I would describe the Elfman theme as. And he has praised Elfman on the Simpsons theme, so it would be a bit unfair for rabid Elf-fans to crucify Zimmer.

Elliot Goldenthal writes brilliant music; he was trained by Aaron Copland and John Corigliano. However, his music can take awhile for one to appreciate. It certainly took me some time. Anyway, excuse me for posting so much about film music, it's just that every film music discussion forum out there SUCKS like you wouldn't believe. Quality discussion is always ruined by yahoos. Or maybe this forum has spoiled me.

On a different note, it kind of amazed me to see a lot of older people (senior-aged) in the theater when I saw Dark Knight. Which I saw on the first Saturday of its release.

[ShyViolet]

And he has praised Elfman on the Simpsons theme, so it would be a bit unfair for rabid Elf-fans to crucify Zimmer.

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't trying to bash him--he's written some fantastic music (the Lion King and Prince of Egypt, being two stunning examples) and I loved the Simpsons Movie score even though I know not everyone was that big a fan of it.
Plus I saw him on a couple of documentaries and he seems like a great guy.

I guess it's just because I really love Danny Elfman, particularly his Burton work, and it kind of frustrates me to see Bat '89 kind of marginalized because of TDK, as great as it is. Not that Zimmer was doing this at all, I was just thinking of public perception in general.

Anyway, excuse me for posting so much about film music, it's just that every film music discussion forum out there SUCKS like you wouldn't believe.

No problem, I love to talk about film music too!


EDIT: I'm not quite sure how to bold/name tag a quote. How do I do this again? Sorry, thanks!

[Daniel]

Clicking "quote" would be the easiest way, but here's an example of what to put inside the brackets: [quote="ShyViolet"]. Don't worry about it though, I was only fixing your 'hidden' link and went ahead and added the name part.