The Disney Vault and You

[Lorikeet]

Hello, denizens of Animated Views!

This is my first-ever post here, but I have been lurking on this forum for quite some time, so I feel that I already know some of you a bit. Thus, greetings all around.

Anyway, I was motivated to make this post because I recently started a thread on iMDB's animation forum (where I am also a long-time lurker and only occasional poster), about how frustrating and confusing I find Disney's home video distribution practices to be. If you're a fan of Disney, you probably know that I am referring to "the vault." The mysterious vault has been dogging me ever since I started trying to collect DVDs about three years ago, as every time I decide I want to add a Disney film to my collection, I find that it's unavailable. I get around this by buying them at local trade-in stores, through Amazon Marketplace, or on eBay, which is how I get most of the movies for my collection anyway.

So, since I am very nerdy and am somewhat fascinated by how other consumers (particularly fans of animation) negotiate their relationship with Disney and the vault, I think I will pose the same questions to you guys as I asked the folks on iMDB. Here they are:

-Do you consider yourself a collector, and if so, how many Disney DVDs/Blu-rays do you own?
-When you want to buy a Disney film on disc, and find that it's not available, do you buy it from the secondary market or wait for it come out of the vault again?
-Do you buy more discs on the primary or secondary market?
-Do you follow Disney's release schedule, so you will know when specific films will come out on home video?
-Do special features affect your choice when picking out a DVD/Blu-Ray? Will you go out of your way to acquire a copy of a specific release because it has more/better special features than another release of the same movie?
-Have you ever "double dipped" on the same movie, and if so, why? (to take advantage of better special features, a new transfer, a higher resolution, etc)
-Do you think Disney charges too much for their discs? If so, do you find ways around the high list prices?
-How do you view Disney's vault policies in general?


I look forward eagerly and nerd-ily for your opinions!

[EricJ]

Those questions sound just a little too focus-group to be "nerdy" (any true Inter-nut calls himself a "geek"), but on those same suspicions I'll play along.

It's the second time around for most of us who were there at the birth-of-DVD, and we've learned: Disney isn't kidding about their Vault, and five to seven years can be a long time.
You can quibble about content on the release (ahemFantasia), but you don't argue with it--As there usually IS no "second market" (unless you mean an eBay/Amazon black one) after the vault date.

As for basic IMDb forum questions, yes, the Vault can be frustrating, but at least for the current Blu releases, they're following more or less the same chronological order that the Platinum DVD releases followed from '01-'07. And if you can't get your hands on Cinderella or Lady & the Tramp yet, you at least have some idea when you're probably going to be able to...A little Wiki-ing, and you should know which to expect when.
As for prices, me, I don't go into a Best Buy without their Disney Movie Rewards $10 coupons, and anything else, I wait for Amazon.

[Lorikeet]

Well, I guess these questions are hyper-specific enough to be focus-group-y, but these are things I am quite interested in. Since the Disney vault has been complicating the way I buy DVDs for so long, I was just hoping to get some insight as to how it affects other people, and I couldn't think of any better people to ask than the animation fans on this board and on iMDB.

As a side note, I don't think true "Inter-nuts" necessarily have to identify as geeks. I, personally, identify my interests as more nerdy than geeky, and hopefully not dorky. I just finished an entire quarter-long college class on fandom and geek culture, and we expounded several times on the difference between geeks, nerds, dorks, and fans.

[Bill1978]

-Do you consider yourself a collector, and if so, how many Disney DVDs/Blu-rays do you own?

Yes I do, I own all the Disney Canon movies on DVD and all the ones that have been released on Blu-Ray for the Australian market. I have a number of live action Disney DVDs as well. But I'm too lazy to walk into my video room and count. Sorry!

-When you want to buy a Disney film on disc, and find that it's not available, do you buy it from the secondary market or wait for it come out of the vault again?

Luckily I am usually on the ball, although I did have to acquire 2 from eBay to help complete my collection. Although I fear I will never have movies like Make Mine Music or Ichabod and Mr Toad on DVD due to them not looking like ever being released in Australia.

-Do you buy more discs on the primary or secondary market?

Primary

-Do you follow Disney's release schedule, so you will know when specific films will come out on home video?

YES!!!

-Do special features affect your choice when picking out a DVD/Blu-Ray? Will you go out of your way to acquire a copy of a specific release because it has more/better special features than another release of the same movie?

No

-Have you ever "double dipped" on the same movie, and if so, why? (to take advantage of better special features, a new transfer, a higher resolution, etc)

Haven't really had that conundrum as I missed the original DVD releases as I was VHS all the way. So when I decided to collect DVDs, I was pretty much up to the 2nd DVD release. Although I will say, now that I'm collecting them on Blu-Ray as well, the releases of say The Lion King will be purchased on Blu-Ray/DVD combo only, so it can go into my funky Vault 'folder' a friend gave me for Christmas. I did buy the 25th Anniversary of The Black Cauldron even though I owned it on DVD already, just for the deleted scene. And I will continue to buy every version of Beauty And The Beast that is released as I am a nerdy geek on that film.

-Do you think Disney charges too much for their discs? If so, do you find ways around the high list prices?

Nope. They are in line with everything else I have purchased

-How do you view Disney's vault policies in general?

They don't really phase me, although it is frustrating trying to tell a friend why they can't pick up The Lion King until whenever. I'm more annoyed that movies like Hercules and Hunchback haven't had a special 2 DVD edition or that for all the re-insertion of cut songs lately, they didn't feel like restoring the cut scenes into The Black Cauldron, especially in this day and age where kids love gore and it would probably still be PG with the cut scenes. Also miffed that Pochahontas didn't get a Special Edition soundtrack for If I Never Knew You (and its reprise) while The Lion King did for a 90 second song that was written for the stageplay NOT the movie.

[Whippet Angel]

Survey fun!


-Do you consider yourself a collector, and if so, how many Disney DVDs/Blu-rays do you own?

I am, but unlike many animation enthusiasts who make it a point to own all of the classics, I only buy the films that I actually like (I passed on the recent blu release on Alice in Wonderland, as I've never been a huge fan of the film). I have a lot of Disney DVD's and only about five or so blu-ray discs (just got my player last fall )

-When you want to buy a Disney film on disc, and find that it's not available, do you buy it from the secondary market or wait for it come out of the vault again?

Like Bill, I'm usually on top of it. I've gone to ebay for out-of-print things before, but not very often. It depends on how much longer the wait is, and how badly I want the movie. I'm usually willing to wait, since I already own most of 'em on VHS.

-Do you buy more discs on the primary or secondary market?

Primary

-Do you follow Disney's release schedule, so you will know when specific films will come out on home video?

Yup, I've already learned the hard way.

-Do special features affect your choice when picking out a DVD/Blu-Ray? Will you go out of your way to acquire a copy of a specific release because it has more/better special features than another release of the same movie?

Yes. I've bought DVDs of films that I otherwise wouldn't have bothered with because the special features looked impressive.

-Have you ever "double dipped" on the same movie, and if so, why? (to take advantage of better special features, a new transfer, a higher resolution, etc)

Aside from upgrading from DVD to blu, I've only double dipped twice on DVD. Once because the newer release had a much better transfer, and the second time because the newer release had a ton of new special features.

-Do you think Disney charges too much for their discs? If so, do you find ways around the high list prices?

Nah. I get most of my stuff off Amazon nowadays.

-How do you view Disney's vault policies in general?

Annoying at times, but not a big huge deal.

[Randall]

Even if it is for marketing purposes, I'm happy to play along. Any studio lurking here is welcome to know what I think of their policies and what I want to buy.

I'm a bit of an uber-collector, though I think Ben is the all-time champ around here. I think I'm on a similar plane as droosan, probably.

-Do you consider yourself a collector, and if so, how many Disney DVDs/Blu-rays do you own?

Dozens. I have all the animated films, and all of the shorts that are avaialble. I also have a bunch of live action Disneys, especially anything that came in a two-disc set. So far, animated Disney Blu-rays have been an automatic buy for me.

Incidentally, I have owned most Disney animated films on laserdisc, too (thereby showing that I'm older than a lot of the other forum members). About the only LDs I never picked up were Make Mine Music and Melody Time, which were only released in Asia, and pricey if you can find them. I do have the Japanese LD of Song of the South.

On all formats, I have well over 1000 titles in total, across all studios.

-When you want to buy a Disney film on disc, and find that it's not available, do you buy it from the secondary market or wait for it come out of the vault again?

Being of relatively mature age (same as GeorgeC or Droosan), I've been able to stay on top of things pretty well in terms of DVD and Blu-ray animated releases, only bypassing a few 'B' level titles that I was satisfied enough having on laserdisc. Even then, sometimes I discovered that my laserdisc had rotted, forcing me to pick up the 2nd DVD release of Great Mouse Detective, for example. I still have only the LD versions of Robin Hood, Rescuers Down Under and Sword in the Stone, though I would have bought the DVDs if bonus features were better. I'll likely upgrade to Blu-ray when available.

-Do you buy more discs on the primary or secondary market?

Mostly primary, since I normally buy what I really want upon release. Occassionally, I use eBay or Amazon Marketplace sellers, but mostly for non-Disney stuff. I do sell a lot on eBay. (More on this later.)

-Do you follow Disney's release schedule, so you will know when specific films will come out on home video?

I keep track of that pretty closely. Always have.

-Do special features affect your choice when picking out a DVD/Blu-Ray? Will you go out of your way to acquire a copy of a specific release because it has more/better special features than another release of the same movie?

With some films, it doesn't affect my decision to buy, only my level of enthusiasm. For other films, special features can sway me if I'm otherwise on the fence about a purchase (e.g. Vault Disney titles like Swiss Family Robinson).


-Have you ever "double dipped" on the same movie, and if so, why? (to take advantage of better special features, a new transfer, a higher resolution, etc)

I have bought some movies on VHS, LD, DVD, and finally Blu-ray (and a few obviously non-Disneys on HD DVD). I often double-dip on DVD, but only if there is an improvment in video presentation (Black Cauldron) or bonus features. Marginal "upgrades" like Mary Poppins' last DVD release don't do anything for me. Upgrades to Blu-ray are mostly a no-brainer.

Due to space and financial considerations, I usually try to sell any previous versions, so I don't have multiple copies at a time. At this point, it's not usually worthwhile to try to sell LDs, but I do sell DVDs on eBay. I won't sell the DVD if the bonus mateiral has not been duplicated on Blu-ray (e.g. Fantasia).

-Do you think Disney charges too much for their discs? If so, do you find ways around the high list prices?

Their pricing is a little high, but with their $10 off coupons and Amazon deals, their pricing becomes more competitive. I definitely am a deal hunter.


-How do you view Disney's vault policies in general?

I'm so used to them, and have been through enough home video cycles already, that it doesn't affect me. Their "vault" isn't really so different than any other film going out of print after a while. Disney just trumpets it more, to encourage rapid sales; retailers compromise by ordering more up front. Dinsey's "vault" window may be more narrow than other DVDs, but if you're already in the market, it's certainly not hard to keep up with releases. I've always assumed that the "vault" matters more to younger colelctors anxious to start their collections once they have the income (particularly once the kids start coming).

[EricJ]

-How do you view Disney's vault policies in general?
I'm so used to them, and have been through enough home video cycles already, that it doesn't affect me. Their "vault" isn't really so different than any other film going out of print after a while. Disney just trumpets it more, to encourage rapid sales; retailers compromise by ordering more up front. Dinsey's "vault" window may be more narrow than other DVDs, but if you're already in the market, it's certainly not hard to keep up with releases. I've always assumed that the "vault" matters more to younger colelctors anxious to start their collections once they have the income (particularly once the kids start coming).

Was watching "Waking Sleeping Beauty", where we see interviews from the late 80's about Disney being wary of releasing their movies on VHS, but the "experiment" of releasing a popular movie like Pinocchio on home video (as opposed to the Five Orphans of Alice/Dumbo, etc.) "seemed to have worked out well"--They were looking forward to how more video and theatrical re-releases would "help promote each other".
Disney wasn't ready to give up theatrical re-releases even into the 90's, and ironically it was their own home video success that essentially made the entire theatrical re-release market extinct.

Their point was that familiarity would breed contempt, and as with the theatricals, the classic titles would lose value if they were permanently available.
Can't argue with that, as we only have the image of the five permanently-available Orphans to go by at the time as the alternative: The availability of Robin Hood and Sword/Stone did make them look pathetic next to the classics (ie. "They need all the viewers they can get!"), but it was nice to be able to see Alice or Dumbo on TV once in a while, when those were the only ones being licensed for distribution.

[GeorgeC]

I'm not going to answer the same questions that have been answered by a million other people and frankly I'm not crazy about marketing on the forum by ANY company, either.


Here's what I think bears repeating and direct delivery to the Disney Board --

STOP BEING SO DARN CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THE PRESSURE GROUPS TELL YOU THEY DON'T WANT TO SEE AND RELEASE ALL THE CLASSIC DISNEY FILMS, IN UNEDITED, ORIGINAL THEATRICAL RELEASE FORMAT! THESE PRESSURE GROUPS REPRESENT A FAR SMALLER PORTION OF THE POPULATION THAN THE DISNEY FANS WHO WANT TO BE ABLE TO BUY AND OWN COPIES OF ALL THE THEATRICAL RELEASES! Nobody likes being told what they can and can't own by bullies!

If you want to put some material within context, get a respectable film historian like Leonard Maltin, not some half-baked, d***@$$ celebrity, to do your little disclaimer. I understand the controversies about BOTH Fantasia (the black centaur scenes) and Song of the South. That doesn't mean the films don't have mostly admirable content and no artistic merit at all. They are a part of film history and should be allowed to be viewed and treated as such, unmolested, by fans of film history and the Disney-philes who appreciate they are part of an era that no longer exists... that shouldn't really exist today. The films should still be allowed to be exhibited by responsible parties and copies owned by the buying public.

Fact of the matter is that more of us hate films being held back in the Vaults to rot than being openly available on the market for mature fans.

IF mass-market release of said-films into Best Buy, Wal-Mart, and other physical vendor structures isn't acceptable, then at least make the films available through the Disney Movie Club. Several less-popular films and older TV series that would be hard to sell now through the usual brick-and-mortar outlets are available online through DMC as of this date.

The longer a "controversial" film like Song of the South is kept locked in the Studio Vault, the more bootlegs are sold with NO MONEY going to the Disney Company. This also increases the pent-up frustration of mature fans and ill-will towards the Company as well. Most of us who have collected Disney films in multiple home video formats have been looking forward to completing our collections...

The Disney Company should at least consider limited edition, fully uncensored of the more controversial films -- but with accompanying historical materials to put the films in context. There have already been limited releases of theatrical propaganda shorts featuring Donald Duck without mass-rioting in the US. The same could be accomplished with Song of the South at the very least....

(Yeah, the black centaurette scene in Fantasia is worse than anything I've seen in Song of the South...)

[Lorikeet]

Thank you all for the detailed responses! I suppose if I'm going to do this thing right, I may as well give my own answers, because it looks like, judging what you guys and the iMDB posters have said, my collecting practices are actually an anomaly.

-I do consider myself a collector, not just of Disney films. At my last count, I had about sixteen Disney films on DVD (like Whippet Angel, I make a point of only buying films that I actually like). I don't own any hi-def discs yet, as I don't have a player.

-When I want to buy a Disney movie that happens to be in the vault at that point in time, I go to a local trade-in store and check their prices. If they don't have the movie or are asking too much for a used copy, I peruse the listings on Amazon Marketplace, and sometimes I resort to eBay.

-Of the sixteen Disney releases I have, only five were bought on the primary market, and four of those were given to me as gifts.

-I don't really follow Disney's release schedule, as I prefer to buy things at my own pace. Right now, I'm debating whether or not I should just buckle down and buy the new Bambi DVD while it's in stores or wait until I can pick it up used. Bambi isn't a film that I feel any special connection to, so I will probably wait until I spot a deal at one of the used record stores.

-Yes, the selection of special features has motivated my choice of releases. When I really wanted a copy of Dumbo, I went out of my way, and paid extra money, to get a copy of the older 60th Anniversary Edition instead of the more recent Big Top Edition, because it had more special features.

-Yes, I am often leery of the list prices that Disney slaps onto their DVDs. This is another reason I prefer to buy my stuff used.

-I find the whole idea of the vault pretty confusing, which is why I wanted some other peoples' opinions on it to begin with.



Btw, what do I have to do to convince you guys that I am not a market research robot? I realize it looks odd to have a brand-new member making elaborate posts out of the blue, but I'm glad I came over here to get some responses to my questions, because after a few legit responses to my iMDB thread, it got hijacked into a bitter argument about copyright infringement (also an interesting topic to me, but not really what I was looking for in a discussion about buying Disney movies.)

[droosan]

Randall sort-of spoke on my behalf, already.

I got started collecting early (around 1985!), and thus I've never really found 'the Vault' to be much of an obstacle. I have pretty much maintained a complete collection of Disney home-video titles, as they've been released .. across four formats, now. I do 'double-dip' occasionally (if bonus features or a better transfer warrant it), and I will also keep vintage editions around, if its bonus features are unique to it.

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One thing which I do as a sort-of 'sideline hobby' is to re-package my DVDs and Blu-rays in 'slim' cases (since -- as Randall noted -- shelf space becomes a premium, after a certain point). This affords me an opportunity to streamline the packaging, and kinda create a neatened 'film library' look for my collection:








The template for these covers was adapted from the standardized look of the Walt Disney Treasures packaging (which I rather liked) .. I've also used this template -- with slight alterations -- for my Pixar and Studio Ghibli DVDs:



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As for some thinking you may be a spam-bot, Lorikeet -- several of our 'new members' in recent years have turned out to be exactly that. They generally seem more interested in posting spam-links than in generating a discussion .. so, if you stick around and participate, I'm sure those suspicions will evaporate.

[Randall]

I love it when Droo posts his custom DVD packaging. Beautiful job, man.

[Whippet Angel]

Nice! Very nice! Thanks for posting those. I'd remembered you saying a few times that you repackaged all your DVDs and I had been curious to see what your collection looked like.

[EricJ]

Ever considering printing out a few (for those who don't want to use up so much of their own color printer ink)?

[Ben]

Before we stray too much into copyrighted waters, I just wanted to say I LOVE Droo's artwork and have dreamed of a day when Disney would go back to all their titles in release date order and simply come out with the final, definitive editions (specifically for collectors) that would use those exact same theatrical poster artworks on their covers (I like the Walt Disney Features logo on all, but would probably prefer something smaller, giving more real estate to the all-too seldom seen posters).

But they are very cool, Droo!


Of the "survey", I'd be happy to participate and will check back in some time this week to complete my answers. In short, I have every Disney animated feature release ("canon" and otherwise), many of them on VHS, LD, DVD and now BD. Some titles, such as Alice to pick a current one, I skipped on DVD since the LD box was so packed and the DVDs added little to it. I've made a pledge to myself to pick up everything on BD for the new transfers, so waited for Alice on BD since the majority of DVD bonuses would have been carried over (though the LD still beats it).

Knowing about the "vault" I try and pick up everything in first week of release (so as to also benefit from any special packaging), but that's more a carry over from the LD days where things disappeared pretty quickly. Luckily we get most of the Disneys here to review, so I keep up with those, but would buy them anyway (Disney titles are my priority, then anything else). I have well over 2500 titles on disc (LD, DVD, BD), though they're all boxed up in anticipation of a house move this summer, so can't give exact numbers/percentages of Disney titles.

I do own most of the live-action catalog stuff too, though not too much of the recent live-action films. Classic is really my "bag", as evidenced by having all of the Treasures tins and any "archive"/documentary type releases. Of course there are always a few titles that "get away", for which I look for on eBay (would LOVE the correct Academy edition of Lady And The Tramp, which came out on LaserDisc and I never got), but I'm pretty content with all that I have.

More soon...when I get the chance to reply properly!

[Lorikeet]

Wow, I LOVE the customized DVD covers! Nothing beats those vintage poster designs, and I definitely prefer them to the covers that Disney has been putting out lately. The figures on the DVD and Blu-Ray covers are so air-brushed, smooth, and "glowy" that they sort of cease to look like the characters that appear in the actual movie. I think this was most prominent with the Snow White Diamond Edition cover; anyone else know what I mean when I say it looked "glowy"? I can't exactly describe it, it just looks a little off.

Anyway, my newest Disney acquisition is a single disc version of Alice in Wonderland's "Un-Anniversary Edition" (that's an ungainly title if I ever heard one). One of the Blockbuster stores in my area was closing, so my housemates and I jumped on it to get some deals. And, for only eight bucks, I think I got a steal. It's actually my first time seeing the film; somehow I never managed to see it as a kid. I have to say I liked it a lot more than I thought I would, given that I've heard many reviewers say it's one of the weaker films in the Disney canon. So, while the songs weren't great, everything else about it was thoroughly enjoyable.