The Rocketeer

Post by **Vernadyn** » March 6th, 2009, 3:45 pm

I think Film Score Monthly did an audio podcast that pointed out a lot of Horner's "borrowings." Then, of course, there is the infamous four-note "danger motif" he seems to use for every other score. I agree that what separates Horner from other composers is that he lifts passages verabatim, as opposed to those like Williams or Goldsmith who may use similar passages from score to score, but meld them to fit the needs of the film. Of course, Horner isn't quite as bad as what Tyler Bates did for 300, lifting Goldenthal's music from Titus.

One theme from Titanic (the synthesized voices one) does sound a lot like Enya's "Book of Days." Admittedly, I only know Enya's work from that song in Far and Away and her song in the Fellowship of the Ring.

Post by **Ben** » March 7th, 2009, 11:21 am

What, the strings: Du-dun, du-dun, brass: bomp, bomp, bomp one?

Here's the thing: in post, when cutting a film, the director often uses a temp track (I'm sure you guys know this). Often these are classical pieces, but more and more as CDs came about they would use cues from other movies.

Usually, but not always specifically, if they know the composer on the project they will use their work for the majority of the temp score. Sometimes, as with James Newton Howard on King Kong, where Howard Shore was released from the project because he wasn't matching Howard's cues from Dinosaur and others as closely as Jackson wanted, the temp score composer winds up actually writing that film's score.

Famously, Kubrick didn't like Alex North's eventual score for 2001 and discarded it in favor of simply licensing the recordings of the temp music he had used, a rare instance of a temp score being used for the final film. Film Score Monthly recently put out the only known recording of North's original recordings (not the re-recording) and it makes for fascinating listening: I was hoping the 2001 DVD or BD would have "reconstructed" how it might have been.

With Horner, I fear that so much of his stuff is out on CD, that it gets used in the temp scoring sessions and, when he comes to it, he follows the basic temp score brief of "matching the feel" all too closely, essentially saying "well, I wrote this, so I can use it". It's unfortunate in that he doesn't really bring anything new to those scores, unlike a Williams or Goldsmith who would bring you the same tone (the "Williams sound") but not actually portions of the same score!

I'm sure that, on Titanic, a bit of Enya would have been used for those scenes, and again Horner just stuck closely to what the director had suggested. That's also why he keeps getting a lot of work, because he basically snuggles down and just follows what's being asked, as opposed to clashing creatively and producing work after work of original stuff. I will add, though, that he did fight with Cameron to have the song version of My Heart Will Go On placed on the final credits, even though my feeling is that this is more of a commercial outlook and guarantees him big fees where most soundtracks don't sell that much.

With Bates/Goldenthal on 300, are we sure that was an actual steal? It could well be that Bates couldn't match the temp track closely enough and the producers eventually chose to license the cue from the Titus owners. You'd need to check the credits there, to see if it was acknowledged or if it was indeed a steal. That's also been known to happen: apart from popular songs being licensed for film music, cues from previous films can sometimes pop up too (can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but it happens).

Yep, George, I gotcha...that's why I placed "defending" in quotes!

Post by **Vernadyn** » March 9th, 2009, 2:36 pm

Admittedly, I am not a Horner collector, so I have not heard every version of his "danger motif," but one of the clearest examples is heard at the beginning of the Willow CD, played by brass. It appears in the Zorro scores. I don't think he uses it in Rocketeer.

Regarding 300, Warner Brothers has posted a message acknowledging Bates' derivations on the 300 website

www.300ondvd.com/300.html

In Alien, Ridley Scott put temp tracks from Goldsmith's Freud in the final film (along with all the other infamous edits, forshadowing the Legend debacle.) Ironcially, Scott then used music from Goldsmith's The 13th Warrior in Kingdom of Heaven. (According to the credits, Scott also used music from Blade 2, but frankly, the music from that film isn't that distinctive so I didn't notice it).

Post by **Ben** » March 9th, 2009, 2:52 pm

I don't have the Willow CD!

But I'd bet that it's the same basic cue as when Cliff Secord faces off Neville St Clair at Griffith Park and we're supposed to "feel the menace"...

Wow...that's fairly unprecedented for a studio to have to apologise to a composer for what another one has done on one of their films. So they were straight steals, and Goldenthal picked up on them! They should perhaps give him an additional music credit!

Post by **Vernadyn** » March 9th, 2009, 3:33 pm

That's probably one of the uses. I haven't seen Rocketeer in forever, so I'll have to watch it again.

Post by **Ben** » March 10th, 2009, 11:28 am

I noticed last night in Watchmen that Mr Bates was up to his old tricks: a lot of some of the score sounded like The Drak Knight and indeed on checking the credits there were cues that I recognised as coming from The Hours that were included lock, stock and barrel by Philip Glass.

GeorgeC · Post by **GeorgeC** » March 10th, 2009, 1:51 pm

Oh Boy,

I HATE being the voice of reason, BUT....

a) we've all gone way off-topic and

b) the negativity and nit-picking starting to creep into the thread is creeping me out!

It's just a bit too nerdy and like another-website-which-shall-not-be-named and frankly Ben you're acting more like me than me!

Fair warning...! This is where the descent into madness begins. ---===> Unless you're already there!

Point b) (C) of George C. Internet statements.
Point c) (C) of George C. Sometimes you've just gotta let things go and enjoy the darn film!

Post by **Ben** » March 10th, 2009, 2:38 pm

...except where the music keeps reminding you of another one...!

Post by **Randall** » March 11th, 2009, 1:56 am

Watchmen had a score?

Funny, I never really noticed it.

Sorry, getting further off-topic...

Post by **Ben** » March 15th, 2009, 5:23 pm

Acbus...I have removed your signature links, which I felt were nothing but spam. I'll thank you in advance not to reinstate them.

Post by **Phil** » March 16th, 2009, 10:36 am

Since this is a thread about The Rocketeer (at least, I thought it was)...

My daughter had a friend over this weekend (they're in third grade). They were poring over my video shelf and The Rocketeer caught their eye. I tried to explain the movie briefly, and my daughter's friend said, "So its just like Iron Man?"

I started to explain the difference, but couldn't. As a basic concept, Iron Man is a modern-day Rocketeer, (or the Rocketeer is a 1930's Iron Man). I never would have realized that on my own.

The things you can learn from a third-grader...

GeorgeC · Post by **GeorgeC** » March 16th, 2009, 1:14 pm

The Rocketeer -- where Commando Cody and Rocketman have gone before!

Technically, those serials didn't arrive until the late 1940s and early 1950s... Long after the heyday of serials and well into the era of their decline.

(Stevens' comic is a decade ahead of the serials.)

These serials used to be shown on Saturday mornings in the area I grew up in. They have long since been banished to film vaults and only 2 of 3 or so Rocketman serials have been released on DVD thus far.

Post by **Ben** » March 16th, 2009, 2:51 pm

I still have my King Of The Rocket Men serial on Republic's Cliffhanger LD release...I wouldn't part with that for anything.

Love, love, love those serials...and the Rocket character ones were my faves.

It's not only the basic concept that the movie Rocketeer shares with Iron Man...much as I liked the Iron Man movie, when he first strapped on the suit to go flying there's certainly a Rocketeer influence in the design of the shots.

Joe Johnston, Jurassic Park III aside, is a great, underrated director. Anyone else seen October Sky? It's a very warm, emotional film that I recommend.

Post by **Vernadyn** » March 16th, 2009, 3:42 pm

I saw October Sky, and it really moved me. Very different, of course, from Vanilla Sky.

Post by **Ben** » March 17th, 2009, 12:10 pm