Why so little 'serious' Western animation?

[GRUNT]

I should have called this thread: "Why no Serious?"

This is something that's been bugging me for a while.

Perhaps it's just my own personal biases, but I consider Disney animation to be technically superior to Japanese animation, for the most part. There are a few exceptions, like Akira, which I think has the highest number of frames per second in any animated film - is that right?

Anyway, the point of my question is why is it that Western animators do not create more 'adult'-ish animation, along the lines of Ralph Bakshi's stuff? Bluth's Titan A.E., I would also consider, a far more mature offering than Disney's flicks. Even 'Anastasia' had a distinctive Don Bluth edge about it, I felt (though that could just be because of the rotoscoping).

Don't get me wrong - I'm a big Disney fan, but this is something that's been puzzling me.

I mean, why DON'T these films do well? People complain that Western animation is geared for kids, and yet we get these amazing films which critics quash.

I understand that studios may not be willing to make the monetary commitment to produce a 'serious' animated film because of the previous lack of success of such films when made in the West, but seriously, is that really the only hurdle? I just find it hard to accept that there's so much stigma about this when there are so many people outside Japan who watch 'serious' Japanese animation (and in fact, my friends say that they prefer Japanese animation to American solely on the basis that it's "more mature" as opposed to the actual technical excellence of the animation). Clearly, there must be a large and untapped market in the West for 'serious' Western-made animated films.

[Ben]

Out of Disney's line-up, I'd say that Fantasia, Lady And The Tramp (for the most part), The Rescuers films (the first especially, but again, for the most part) and, more recently, Atlantis: The Lost Empire and even Treasure Planet were pretty mature films that struck more chords with older audiences than what the demographic might have suggested.

Aside from Disney, we have the often brought up Animal Farm, Watership Down, The Plague Dogs and When The Wind Blows...each every bit as good as Disney or Japanese animation, and there have been a few other films recently that I can't quite recall right now but which have made an impact: I'd add Ratatouille and WALL-E to the list too.

But...I hear what you're saying, though I think you're talking mainly subject matter. The basic line is, unfortunately, that Western animation costs such a lot to make that they need to make sure there's an audience for it, and a return on investment. To try and catch all, they make the films for as widespread an viewer as possible. Japanese animation costs much less to make (even the high frame rate ones) and is geared toward a specific market, making the numbers add up and allowing the artists to play more with the tone and stories.

[GRUNT]

You betta believe I love those flicks you mentioned, though I confess that I haven't seen some of the classics like Watership Down .

Rataouille....you know, you wouldn't believe how much trouble I had getting people to watch it with me . I actually hold the film in very high regard - it feels 'smaller' (though no less great) than other Pixar films. Kinda like to Pixar what The Shop Around the Corner was to Lubtisch .

I've been dying to see Wall-E, but it was delayed here in Australia. Fortunately, it's coming out on the 18th at last! I've managed to avoid most of the spoilers, so I expect to be in for quite a treat! I have very high expectations .

It's true that I'm talking largely about subject matter in my original post. I'm happy enough with the maturity and sophistication of a lot of cartoons in the West - particularly some of the Disney ones you mentioned like Atlantis and Treasure planet, but I also like pointing to Don Bluth in situations like this, too . Still, like with Ratatouille, do you not find that people don't take even something even as gritty as Titan A.E. all that seriously?

Mm - I was just wondering if money actually was the only hurdle or not. What you sayabout trying to appeal to as wide an audience as possible makes a lot of sense. I just thought that given the large number of Westerners who enjoy Japanese animation that that was evidence enough that there is a market for Western animation of that kind of subject matter.

[Tyler_Legrand]

I just thought that given the large number of Westerners who enjoy Japanese animation that that was evidence enough that there is a market for Western animation of that kind of subject matter.

Not large enough.

[Ben]

Unfortunately, even a "big" hit like Spirited Away and the like only play in limited release or arthouses.

It seems the market for <I>any</I> foreign animation in the US is limited, or else we'd be seeing some of the wonderful stuff coming out from Europe too.

[Rosengeist]

I think that it's not so much that it isn't done, because I would argue that some indie films and small projects allow animators to complete darker works, but that the companies that have the money to produce widely viewed films generally do want to make the widest audiance buy into their film. But this has already been stated, really I think marketing has a lage role to play in this.

I'm not sure about Ralph Bakshi's stuff, but it wouldn't suprise me if it were not very well promoted. I can tell you that certainly 'Titan A.E' was not, and furthemore, though I enjoyed that film, I still think it kind of dragged at points, it was also somewhat predictable. This doesn't mean it wasn't a good film, but if you combine a film that (as I recall) was not received well critically with poor promotion, you'll receive poor ticket sales.

The same can be said of many of the films that I feel actually are darker than others in the isney cannon like 'Atlantis' and 'Treasure Planet'.

Compare these projects to things such as the 'South Park' film, which had a wide older fanbase, was critically well received, was well promoted and made money and I think that it becomes clearer why most animated projects that are more adult and are animated don't do well.

[EricJ]

I'm not sure about Ralph Bakshi's stuff, but it wouldn't suprise me if it were not very well promoted. I can tell you that certainly 'Titan A.E' was not, and furthemore, though I enjoyed that film, I still think it kind of dragged at points, it was also somewhat predictable. This doesn't mean it wasn't a good film, but if you combine a film that (as I recall) was not received well critically with poor promotion, you'll receive poor ticket sales.

The same can be said of many of the films that I feel actually are darker than others in the isney cannon like 'Atlantis' and 'Treasure Planet'.

Oyyy...I remember the days of '01-'03.
The days when columnists were trying to figure out why we were all going to Pixar movies...
Except that they kept trying to preserve their studio mentality that All Animated Movies Were The Same (because they had the same demographic promotional outreach, of course!), and just could not, for the very sacred life of them, figure out why a Pixar movie was a hit and a Dreamworks movie flopped--Huh, mean, they were both, like CGI, 'n stuff!

Oh, the bones-and-chicken-entrails theories we got back then:
Until Our Friend, the Studio/Analyst Witch Doctors looked at Titan AE's bellyflop(gee, you get Don Bluth to direct hard-sci-fi and it flops?...How does THAT happen??), threw it in the pot with Atlantis's sinking (were we supposed to like any of the characters?...Well, okay, the direct-video TV version made them likable), stirred it up with Hunchback from seven years ago, threw in a pinch of "Spirit:Stallion" and "Sinbad", and proclaimed ooh, ee, ooh-ah-ah, ting-tang, The Public Must Hate Action Films. Ugga-bugga.

(And if they hadn't...maybe "Treasure Planet" wouldn't have been panic-promoted as a Wacky Slapstick Comedy, and people wouldn't have fled in terror.) -_-

[Rosengeist]

(And if they hadn't...maybe "Treasure Planet" wouldn't have been panic-promoted as a Wacky Slapstick Comedy, and people wouldn't have fled in terror.) -_-

Thank you EricJ for pointing out the horrible marketing of that film. Personally I found it quite enjoyable, but I do know people who only saw it because they heard Martin Short's voice in the trailer.

I'm new to this quoting other people thing, I hope I did that correctly at the top.

[American_dog_2008]

Is there some movies like Watership Down and The Plague Dogs nowadays?

[Ben]

Hey Rosengeist...welcome to our boards. You're doing great!

[EricJ]

Thank you EricJ for pointing out the horrible marketing of that film. Personally I found it quite enjoyable, but I do know people who only saw it because they heard Martin Short's voice in the trailer.

And more to the point, I know people who claim they'd never watch it in their LIVES because of Martin Short's voice in the trailer (and almost nothing else in the TV ads).

Fortunately, I was able to sneak the video on the next unsuspecting and un-box-office-corrupted generation, and now it's one of the "default" Disney movies they request when they need a title.

[Rosengeist]

Thanks for the kind welcome Ben

And back to EricJ, I haven't personally seen the anti-Martin Short sentiment, but I'm certain it exists. I think there whole last minute 'goofy, funny, cute, friendly' character advertisement campaign did much more to repel audiances than draw them in.

I've had a similar experience with getting this film seen. It took my forever to convince my best friend to watch it, but she really, really liked it once she finally sat down for it. I for one think Captain Amelia is a really interesting take on a woman in power in Disney, and Silver makes for a fine villain/father figure. The character designs still feel very fresh to me.[/quote]

[eddievalient]

Good for you! Now that my niece is old enough to really follow a story, I'm gonna be doing the same thing (Secret of NIMH, anyone? I consider that one a pretty serious film).

[Rosengeist]

Thanks for the warm welcome Ben

And back to EricJ, I've had a similar experience. It took me forever to get my best friend to watch it, and then she couldn't stop borrowing it.

[Ben]

We still talking Treasure Planet? I actually love the relationships between the characters, and JNH's score is fantastic...one of the things that got him the King Kong gig.