Don Bluth discussion

[Farerb]

I think both The Swan Princess and FernGully: The Last Rainforest are more popular than The King and I. It doesn't matter because all of them are terrible. While I don't think Anastasia is terrible, I think it's really mediocre, maybe could have been decent if they git rid of Rasputin. Its worse offense is the rotoscoping. I have no idea how people aren't distracted by it, especially with the characters' eyes.
Anyway, Don Bluth was an overrated animator and director. The reason he went out of business is because nobody wanted to work with him anymore (you get a bad reputation if you decide to have fights with Spielberg and Lucas).

[Ben]

Looks like youre on Bens side!

I see, and appreciate, what you did there

Yes, I did also use to sometime drop the 19 from a '22 or '23, but do find myself adding it for clarity thesedays!



As for 90s, or 1990s (!) films, Anastasia is certainly the one most likely to be mistaken for a Disney film by those not as well versed in such things as we on this board. It was positioned as just that by then-Fox, and their hiring of Bluth was no mistake in wanting to push that angle. Getting a Broadway team in to write the songs helped, and I’d argue that the first half is pretty up there with what Disney was doing around then, though I’d also agree it’s not quite there technically, and that this is mainly due to the rotoscoping, which bothered the heck out of me when I first saw it and doesn’t look any better with age. It’s just so stilted and slow looking, like the motion-capture of The Polar Express, which is just slightly unnatural.

The film really more falls apart in the second half, when the unrealities start to take over and the songs stop. I think it’s a as good as it is because Bluth didn’t have total control, which is always good because he has to fight for his decisions more, as he did on the Spielberg pictures. I always remind myself that the difference between Anastasia without the studio breathing down his neck, and Anastasia where Bluth had total control, is Bartok The Magnificent…

First for me in the 90s films is naturally Prince Of Egypt, which I’ve always anachronistically referred to as "Disney Does Moses" in terms of its timing and filmmakers involved. Had JK stayed at Disney and DWA never happened, I think we could have still basically had this film come down the pipeline (and still had tradigital animation as a viable medium). Anastasia definitely comes a decent second, because of its hallmarks and how it positioned itself. And it’s still the closest to Disney that another studio got — even POE doesn’t seem to get mistaken for a Disney picture.

EVERYthing else is number three, or below. There is perhaps no clear third place, but let’s take a look…

If I look back through my list of films that I even bothered picking up on disc (LD, DVD and BD, and no, that does not include the atrociously messed up The King And I), then I whittle it down to (in order of release)…

THE NUTCRACKER PRINCE
ROCK-A-DOODLE
ROVER DANGERFIELD
AN AMERICAN TAIL: FIEVAL GOES WEST
FERNGULLY: THE LAST RAINFOREST
COOL WORLD
LITTLE NEMO: ADVENTURES IN SLUMBERLAND
THE PRINCESS AND THE COBBLER
WE'RE BACK! A DINOSAUR'S STORY (LD)
THE SWAN PRINCESS
THE PAGEMASTER
THE PEBBLE AND THE PENGUIN
BALTO
SPACE JAM
BEAVIS AND BUTTHEAD DO AMERICA
CATS DON'T DANCE
ANASTASIA
QUEST FOR CAMELOT
THE PRINCE OF EGYPT
SOUTH PARK: BIGGER, LONGER & UNCUT
and, of course,
THE IRON GIANT

Now, if we're talking Disney-wannabes in terms of family musicals, then we lose some, especially the adult films Beavis & Butthead and South Park. But then we also lose genuinely good animated films such as Balto and The Iron Giant, both of which trounce Anastasia and anything else (and, in Giant's case, probably beats POE overall as well).

But, okay. So taking out other non-or-little-musicals, that leaves us with…

THE NUTCRACKER PRINCE
ROCK-A-DOODLE
AN AMERICAN TAIL: FIEVAL GOES WEST
FERNGULLY: THE LAST RAINFOREST
THE PRINCESS AND THE COBBLER
THE SWAN PRINCESS
THE PEBBLE AND THE PENGUIN
CATS DON'T DANCE
ANASTASIA
QUEST FOR CAMELOT
THE PRINCE OF EGYPT

The two main ones already mentioned aside, it’s not a great list, is it? Let's discount some more that don’t, wouldn’t and shouldn’t cut the Disney mold in approach or overall quality, fairly or unfairly boiling it down to…

ROCK-A-DOODLE
FERNGULLY: THE LAST RAINFOREST
THE PRINCESS AND THE COBBLER
THE SWAN PRINCESS
CATS DON'T DANCE
QUEST FOR CAMELOT

And thems your choices, in terms of Disney musical types. Of which I’d argue Ferngully doesn’t really count, and Princess And The Cobbler (an alternate international version of the bastardized The Thief) should be taken out as although it’s perhaps a little closer to Richard Williams' intent than Miramax's Arabian Knight version, isn’t the film he wanted to make. Which takes us down to four potential Disney "knockoffs":

ROCK-A-DOODLE
THE SWAN PRINCESS
CATS DON'T DANCE
QUEST FOR CAMELOT

Opening shot aside, Doodle is a complete mess. Swan Princess tries, and sometimes tries hard, but is hampered by its lack of real passion and technical ability. It just goes through the motions and *kmows* it’s trying to be a Disney knockoff, as does The Princess And The Pea (not listed so far as it never got a disc) and Quest For Camelot, outside of exactly one decent sequence, the On My Father's Wings song, but the rest of it is too hamfisted and confused. Which leaves us Cats Don’t Dance, I guess, through a process of elimination. And isn’t a bad choice at all, being directed by future Disney director Mark Dindal, and again being made by a lot of Disney names.

So…yeah…if you’re talking musical knockoffs at that time when Lion King had every other studio jumping on the animation bandwagon and thinking they could have the next big animated threat on their hands, then I’d go with Cats Don’t Dance as a third choice after POE and Anastasia.

If you want to add in the Disney *style* films, then I’d argue a toss up between POE and The Iron Giant at number one, with high places for Balto and South Park making up a top five (though Anastasia comes toward the bottom of that, for me).

Interesting discussion!

[Farerb]

You forgot the dreadful Thumbelina, but I don't blame you.

I know I used to watch some of these films back then, but the only ones I own on Blu-ray and ever watch again are The Prince of Egypt and The Iron Giant (by the way I don't think The Iron Giant is a Disney knockoff).

I know that Jeffrey Katzenberg wanted to make PoE at Disney but Eisner didn't allow it, so I don't think the film would have ever been made if he had stayed at Disney. I definitely don't see Disney doing something like this now when their leadership only views animated films as just for kids (and it shows that way in the films themselves).

[Ben]

Didn’t include Thumbelina as, like I said, I started from a list of discs I had. I never bothered to get it on disc, as it *is* dreadful!

Never said The Iron Giant was a knockoff, though, which is also why it didn’t make the final cut of four. I guess Thumbelina should be in there by rights, and it actually *might* be a more tolerable film than Rock-A-Doodle or Swan Princess…but like I said, the bar is pretty low!

[Dacey]

I’ll defend Thumbelina as someone who grew up with it. I have a soft spot for it, and have actually been meaning it up on disc.

Ferngully is great for what it is, as is Once Upon a Forest (though I haven’t watched that one for a while). Camelot has great music and is extremely likable even if it’s a bit messy at spots.

Anastasia is still the non-Disney king (well, queen) of the 90s for me.