When it's a discussion of "What killed serious animation in the US?"...it ALWAYS comes down to Treasure Planet. -_-
Even though "Titan AE" was holding the smoking gun.
(Not to mention, we could've gotten that Disney "Don Quixote" by now, but NOO-ooo, a lot of anti-Eisner fanboy "Hunchback" whiners had to complain about "Why isn't it more like Victor Hugo??" and scare them off...
Even though we liked the "serious" parts of Hunchback, and it only flopped because Mike & Jeff were trying to ram Next Year's Stage Musical down our throats.)
Why so little 'serious' Western animation?
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With fairness to "Mike & Jeff", I don't think there was any kind of stage plan at that point...Beauty And The Beast was still very fresh and there was no indication it was going to be a hit or something that would inspire future musicals.
And, while Treasure Planet does kind of take the rap, I think it's more because this was a major film coming from the master purveyors of such product. I don't think anyone was expecting Titan AE to blast the doors off the space genre...but both films were stuck in a double niche: sci-fi <I>and </I> animation, which aswe know can sometimes struggle together.
TP only gets the bigger rap because it was a massive, "important" <I>Disney</I> picture. At that point, none of its competitors had come close to mimicking their success...so it was clear if <I>Disney</I> failed, then the business would fail.
And, while Treasure Planet does kind of take the rap, I think it's more because this was a major film coming from the master purveyors of such product. I don't think anyone was expecting Titan AE to blast the doors off the space genre...but both films were stuck in a double niche: sci-fi <I>and </I> animation, which aswe know can sometimes struggle together.
TP only gets the bigger rap because it was a massive, "important" <I>Disney</I> picture. At that point, none of its competitors had come close to mimicking their success...so it was clear if <I>Disney</I> failed, then the business would fail.
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Actually, the musical bug dates all the way back to the theme parks, long before B&B ever went to Broadway:Ben wrote:With fairness to "Mike & Jeff", I don't think there was any kind of stage plan at that point...Beauty And The Beast was still very fresh and there was no indication it was going to be a hit or something that would inspire future musicals.
The theme park stage shows were doing so well, there was an in-studio directive from the two heads to gear animated-feature stories more towards earthbound source material with human characters (yes, counting Greek gods), to be easier adapted to stagebound productions
And once critics gushing over "the new Broadway" gave them the idea to gussy up the existing park show for a paying audience, it's not hard to see where Jeff was taking the "synergy" idea from there.
(Even all the way to Dreamworks, if you sit back and look at the made-for-Broadway staginess of "Prince of Egypt"...)
But no Hunchback musical?--Oh, you underestimate poor, "misunderstood" Mikey:
http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/ ... 6/574.aspx
TP hit a perfect storm of:Ben wrote:TP only gets the bigger rap because it was a massive, "important" <I>Disney</I> picture. At that point, none of its competitors had come close to mimicking their success...so it was clear if <I>Disney</I> failed, then the business would fail.
1) "Lilo & Stitch" still too fresh as a breakout movie from last summer, and getting its full cultural foothold by August, thus not leaaving the audience clamoring for another animated five months later (even though Disney thought the weird Hawaiian "pet project" would be gone in two weeks and their Big Fall Epic would save the studio),
2) The unholy mess of "Atlantis", one year before,
3) Misdirected Katzenberg-formula anger from fans resulting in "It's all Eisner's fault", at the same time as fans were symnbolically cheering the Roy Disney boardroom movement to kick out said executive.
4) A general "Give us Barabbas & Stitch!" burning of Big-Classic Disney movies, from animation fans who'd gotten a little too revolution-struck by the "weirdness" of weird lil' Chris Sanders characters, and a burning in effigy of any movies that looked like "Disney's usual style", unquote,
5) The unexpected (and previously unexplained) success of "Santa Clause 2", which had been pushed out in the first weeks of November, as disposable cannon fodder, in front of the two big studio guns of 007 and Harry Potter--And which nobody expected to still be in the Top 5 by Thanksgiving and compete for box-office rankings with their other big November movie...
6) Changing Nov./Dec. audiences making Thanksgiving now one of the worst times to release more than one kids' movie (and that one being the second Harry Potter movie, two weeks earlier),
7) Analysts looking for every imaginable (and we do mean "imaginable") theories for "Why a Disney movie DIDN'T come in at #1...And came in 5th!!" by blaming audience-fear theories, instead of the fact that there were four still-drawing bigger films in front of it,
8 ) Eisner's quick save-face pulling of TP out of theaters BEFORE Christmas to appease the Stockholders' Meeting accidentally causing studios to notice the untapped gold mine of Dec 26th for school-vacation family movies...After '03, you never saw kids' films released any other time of the year.
...To this day, you can still hear anti-Disney whiners talking about "Disney movies like Atlantis, TP and Home on the Range" in the same sentence, as if they actually WERE the same movie.
It was a perception problem back then, and it's a problem today.
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I think Disney's more 'serious' animations flopped and some companies took that as a warning sign not to follow suit. Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid, etc. are by no means kiddy or silly (unlike Chicken Little) but they do carry the fairy tale label and so they have the image of being for younger children.
Yet, films like Atlantis were more action-oriented and so to get a film like that from Disney was unexpected for most fans so it didn't get as good of reviews.
We're living in a country that prefers to watch American Idol and Dancing With the Stars to 60 Minutes or 20/20.
So animated films fall prey to the same problems. People like fluff, not substance.
So there's not very many deeply psychological or serious western animated films.
Yet, films like Atlantis were more action-oriented and so to get a film like that from Disney was unexpected for most fans so it didn't get as good of reviews.
We're living in a country that prefers to watch American Idol and Dancing With the Stars to 60 Minutes or 20/20.
So animated films fall prey to the same problems. People like fluff, not substance.
So there's not very many deeply psychological or serious western animated films.
Feature Animation Favorites:
- Tekkonkinkreet, Watership Down, A Town Called Panic, Howl's Moving Castle, Rio 2096, Mind Game, Fantastic Planet
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Actually, accdg. to reports, the reason we got Atlantis was that Disney was going through their Hunchback/Frankenstein/Quixote "Serious book" phase, and handed "Journey to the Center of the Earth" to Trousdale & Wise...Neal wrote:Yet, films like Atlantis were more action-oriented and so to get a film like that from Disney was unexpected for most fans so it didn't get as good of reviews.
But (as anyone who's sat through the Brendan Fraser version would agree), T&W thought the official Journey was "too dull", and wanted something with, quote, "more monsters in it"--
So, they scrapped the Actual Jules Verne in favor of Do-It-Yourself Artificial Jules Verne, and had planned at least three monster attacks on the way to the city....Which turned out to be incredibly expensive and time-consuming to animate, reducing the idea to just the one robot-lobster-thingy they never got around to explaining, and just filling the empty space up with MORE wacky-supporting-character shtick.
Thus, it could be said that Atlantis didn't fail because it was an action movie, it failed because it wasn't an action movie....
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Heh, that's actually quite an interesting look at what the repercussions of Treasure Planet's box office failure would be, outside the obvious "it's a flop".Ben wrote:
And, while Treasure Planet does kind of take the rap, I think it's more because this was a major film coming from the master purveyors of such product. I don't think anyone was expecting Titan AE to blast the doors off the space genre...but both films were stuck in a double niche: sci-fi <I>and </I> animation, which aswe know can sometimes struggle together.
TP only gets the bigger rap because it was a massive, "important" <I>Disney</I> picture. At that point, none of its competitors had come close to mimicking their success...so it was clear if <I>Disney</I> failed, then the business would fail.
Atlantis is one of the flicks I watch fairly regularly, I admit
. I remember going "wow" the first time I saw Helga...heheh . Jessica Rabbit can seriously eat her heart out. Even before I developed a real interest in animation, I remember rewinding (again and again) a shot with her talking to Milo in some elevator because I was entranced by the movements of her eyebrows and facial expression 
. As another aside, I'm still disappointed that Atlantis wasn't a big success...I thought it was epic.
Having just seen Wall-E, I must say that I'm very impressed. I think that Pixar really did have huge bawlz to do something as unconventional as Wall-E. I mean, sure it's 'traditional' enough in that anyone can watch and enjoy it, but I am I alone in my belief that the film is less accessible than Pixar's other flicks? While I for one was paying rapt attention throughout the film, I have a friend who refused to watch the whole thing, and one of my big bro's friends shockingly fell asleep during the film!
I wish I'd seen Wall-E before I made this thread, because in my opinion, it's pushing boundaries on what kinds of stories can be told in mainstream Western animation (not to an incredible extent, of course; but more than enough to impress me and keep me optimistic
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Atlantis was such a tragic waste of Mike Mignola guest character-design--GRUNT wrote:Atlantis is one of the flicks I watch fairly regularly, I admit
Always wanted to see what they could do with giving Mignola one more break (Norse myth, maybe?), but in the meantime, I'll just have to content myself with the Hellboy cartoons.
(I repeat that all our Atlantis explorers needed was just some hand, ANY firm hand, at the story reigns:
When they handed the "Team Atlantis" series over to the mythology-obsessed "Gargoyles" story editors, on the "Atlantis II: Milo's Return" DVD-pilot, the team just started to kick into high gear.)
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It's a "Recycled TV series pilot", but it's not Cinderella 2:GRUNT wrote:However, I admittedly haven't seen either the Hellboy cartoons or the Atlantis direct-to-dvd sequel :[. I heard Atlantis II wasn't good, but I'd check it out on your word
The series looks like it might've been actually pretty good, for Gargoyles fans with rerun withdrawal...
And now given something to do, BION, Moliere isn't annoying in the series version!--How radical an improvement is that??
(The Hellboy cartoons are also pretty good on a neo-Marvel/Justice League level, even if they're not necessarily Guillermo del Toro.)
The Hellboy cartoons are very little like the original comics. Completely different drawing styles.
If you want to see an animated films that LOOKS like Mignola's drawing, then see The Amazing Screw-On Head.
It's a neat little film but not something I'd want to see every week.
Never really cared much for Mignola's style aside from that film. Personally, I like the drawing style of the animated Hellboy better than the original comics. It's easier on the eyes. I always felt that Mignola's artwork was a bit too rough for the mainstream. Most people like cleaner linework.
I don't think Mignola's style was the major reason for Atlantis's failure. There were a lot of things going on with that film that just didn't work and the characters were not as appealing to a lot of people, either.
The biggest mistake with that film, however, was presuming there was a big enough teenage boy audience to make a full-fledged $100 million action/adventure animated feature film a hit. There wasn't 70 years ago, and still isn't today.
If you want to see an animated films that LOOKS like Mignola's drawing, then see The Amazing Screw-On Head.
It's a neat little film but not something I'd want to see every week.
Never really cared much for Mignola's style aside from that film. Personally, I like the drawing style of the animated Hellboy better than the original comics. It's easier on the eyes. I always felt that Mignola's artwork was a bit too rough for the mainstream. Most people like cleaner linework.
I don't think Mignola's style was the major reason for Atlantis's failure. There were a lot of things going on with that film that just didn't work and the characters were not as appealing to a lot of people, either.
The biggest mistake with that film, however, was presuming there was a big enough teenage boy audience to make a full-fledged $100 million action/adventure animated feature film a hit. There wasn't 70 years ago, and still isn't today.
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Adult animation
What happened to {2D} adult animation??? All i see in the movie theaters are Movies based on cartoons in CGI{and live-action}, live-action films...Disney movies, Dreamwork sequels{which suck really...Im not a fan of dreamworks}, and remakes of old horror films.
