Completely wrong top 30 list

[droosan]

But too many people define "timeless" as meaning "does not take place in the present".

That's not necessarily, so, though; I'd say Pixar's features have overall been somewhat 'timeless' .. as are (most of) Disney's.

The recent trend of including pop songs and seemingly-random pop-culture references (which are sometimes close to ten years 'out-of-date' even when the movie is released) is, IMO, unfortunate .. in that most of these films will fail to 'connect' with kids 20 or 30 years from now. But few studios today seem to think that far ahead; or even feel that they should.

Even so, this is not necessarily the 'kiss-of-death' .. after all, Looney Tunes (and other cartoon series of the classic Hollywood shorts era) are 'chock-full' of references to the pop-culture of their day; yet, many of them are still immensely entertaining.

And one of my favorite features from the early 1980's, Rock & Rule, is packed with rock songs by bands that were already several years 'out-of-fashion' in 1983. (even so, there's a distinct difference between my personally enjoying something like Rock & Rule, and placing it on an 'All Time Best' list).

In both cases, though .. there is much more to the cartoon's 'entertainment factor' than the pop-culture references, or the music. Not as much so, with some recent features (though, as in all things .. time will tell).

[Vernadyn]

I think once you get to a certain high level of quality, you cannot argue that one film (or work of art) is better than another absolutely. It may be for an individual, but people are different. The very things that one may like about a film may not be palatable to others. Although "good story" and "strong characters" could be seen as constants of quality, there are endless ways of achieving this. That can be hard to understand for people like me who are passionate for certain films. Accusations of being "uncultured" or "unappreciative of the past" or "stuck in the past" do not help and are often untrue. How amazing is it that on so many movie boards (not this one) one can figure out another's past, character, and disposition (almost exclusively negative) just because they have a different taste in movies! You don't like X-movie like I do, so you must be a criminal of epic proportions!

Just because I think Pinocchio, Bambi, Dumbo, and 101 Dalmatians are masterpieces does not mean I cannot like put films like Toy Story or Lion King on the same level. It's when people start imposing their viewpoints onto others via an absolute scale that things start getting out of hand. Most people are aware of this, but it's easy on the internet especially to get caught up in the heat of the moment.

That's not to say that I think everything is equally good (see first sentence.) But I never see anyone debating over whether Jaws is better or worse than Batman and Robin (at least with any amount of passion.) It's the Godfather vs. Shawshank Redemption debates that really get people going.

[American_dog_2008]

My list

1. Shrek the Third
2. Shrek 2
3. Shrek
4. Over the Hedge
5. Millionaire Dogs
6. Oliver & Company
7. Ice Age 2
8. Ice Age
9. Lady and the Tramp
10. 101 Dalmatians

[Macaluso]

I honestly can't understand how you can think shrek the third was good.

that was one of the worst movies I have ever seen

[Once Upon A Dream]

They updated it,but they kicked out a few Disney movies (Like Sleeping Beauty and Snow White) and Kung Fu Panda is in the 2nd place I don't think that Kung Fu Panda deserve this place and I don't think it will better then Snow White or Sleeping Beauty.
But I"m glad to see Enchanted there .
American_dog_2008-I also liked Shrek The Third.

[eddievalient]

Speaking of completely wrong, did anyone else here see AFI's top ten list? They only listed one film that wasn't made by Disney or Pixar (Shrek, predictably). What about The Secret of NIMH, Watership Down, Balto, Once Upon a Forest, Howl's Moving Castle, heck, even South Park BLU? I was severely disappointed that they would limit their scope like that because they're essentially saying that if it's not Disney, it's not worth paying attention to.

[Once Upon A Dream]

Well,Dreamworks and Blue-Sky should be there,maybe Mizaki but South Park should be ignored.

[Whippet Angel]

I was severely disappointed that they would limit their scope like that because they're essentially saying that if it's not Disney, it's not worth paying attention to.

Eh, in my opinion none of AFI's "top lists" are worth paying attention to.

[EricJ]

snow white is the worst Disney princess

I wonder why some people dislike her\don't like her as the others,it's her voice?

That, and the cheap feminist symbol-bashing that Snow appears to be happy about singing while she cleans the kitchen...

But oh, the voice: Actually, in early stages, Snow was still perceived to be as young as the character in the Grimm story, who was a little girl of about twelve. (And who, naturally, would still consider it "playing" at fixing up someone else's house.)
Although she doesn't look it, the Disney character's age was never established, and Adriana Castelotti claimed she was intentionally trying to aim for a "little girl" voice.

And if now we're going to get cheap jokes about the Prince being a "pedophile", some people just can't get over their personal issues.

Thought this off-topic and better for the Favorite Princess post).

Although we've been Shrek-programmed to think so (click, bleep, Disney only makes fairytales, sub-error...), actually there were VERY FEW princesses when Walt was alive--
Walt didn't really like princesses that much, count 'em:

Snow, of course, was Walt's "ultimate" attempt to create a fairytale the first time, and was intended to be the very epitome of 19th-cty. German Grimm Story...
When they got to Cinderella, Walt knew a fairytale would rescue the studio after their Wartime doldrums, but he didn't want their new story-centric princess to be accused of being a clone of their last hit--That's why Cindy comes off as a more "contemporary" 1950 princess, complete with Miss America prom dress and 'do.
By the time they got to Sleeping Beauty seven years later, Walt thought he'd painted himself into a corner and there was nowhere to go with the new female focus of the story, that critics wouldn't complain he'd gotten into a "rut"--His new idea was to make us intentionally ignore the princess this time, and only focus on the visual motif, the side stories, and her role in the plot of the larger story.

That said, I'll take Snow for her "evocative" fairytale-ness, thanks much.
(And yes, this would probably go in the "favorite" thread too, but didn't want Mac' lame one-line Shrekkie trolling to infect the rest of the List thread.)

[Ben]

Snowy's age has, over the years and a few books, been nailed down to being about 14. This comes from Walt's story meetings as relayed in Brian Sibley's terrific book, if I remember correctly.

Since "wenches" and the like were taken for wives much younger in those days, this does work out that the Prince - also young, maybe 18 or early 20s? - isn't a cradle-snatcher!

In recent times, with age laws and the like, I've read Snowy's age as being 16 or 18, and again although she's obviously playing younger, she would have had the closeted princess upbringing, so the "innocence" that shines through could be well established here too.

Put it short, Snow White is anything between 14 and 18, and the voice works whichever way you slice it.

[Dusterian]

The list has changed/been updated: Yahoo Users' Top 30 Animated Films. It seems a lot of good classics got even lower!

Ben, I also heard in the outline for Snow White the title character was 14 and the Prince was 18. And yes, being based on an old fairy tale, girls married younger.

EricJ, a few things. You can point out Snow White had her animals friends do a lot of the cleaning, so she didn't do all that domestic work by herself.

Second, Sleeping Beauty's dress is also rather like a 1950's prom dress, at least I've seen old prom dresses that look that way, even her hair and crown matched those on the prom queen I saw, rather than the usual medieval attire, and actually her stylized pointy breasts fit into the popular "torpedo bra" of the time.

Finally, as for "ultimate" fairy tale, I heard time and again Walt aimed Sleeping Beauty to be the ultimate one, and in my opinion it feels the most fairy tale-like. There's no dwarf washing or mice chasing. It's all singing, dancing, romancing, magic making and magic fighting. And the atmosphere evokes epic fairy tale the most.

And finally, Walt definately liked princesses as Snow White and Cinderella were among his favorite films, a piece of animation from Cinderella was his favorite piece of animation ever done. Oh, and I actually heard Walt started hating Snow White because everyone compared his later films to that one...but I don't believe he ever hated it.

[Once Upon A Dream]

Snow White is a wonderful character,she cleans because she likes to help people,but the Prince is... wrong,pedophile,no name,looks he put lipstick on and when he kissed Snow White he thought she's dead.
Dustrian,Sleeping Beauty whould have been the ultimate one if Aurora got more attention,we shouldn't ignore her,EricJ,SHE'S the movie,she's the hero of the film.
I think actually Walt liked Snow White because she's his first Princess.

[Dusterian]

Oh, I knew there was something about Snow White looking more like her time than 19th-cty German or whatever. Snow White has that 1930's 'do. She looks like a flapper. Seriously. Even though these women were very sexual in secret, they actual kept their hair short and flattened their chests to look more androgynous, or like boys. I think it was some kind of "women shouldn't be looked at as sex objects" thing. Anyway, Snow White looks very much like that, even though flappers were really ending by the time the film was made. You think she's evocative? She's flat and unsexual.

And she has high-heels. Not so sure those were historically correct. Well, maybe they had shoes with heels that high...maybe...I guess they weren't that high... Aurora definately had high heels, and that's pretty incorrect for medieval times. Cinderella seems to too, but those are much more likely to be accurate to her time.

Also, she looks a lot like the girls in many films before hers, especially reminding me of the silent ones where they had really white faces, black hair, and heavily black out-lined doll eyes. And their lips, too, were probably made to stand out with lipstick. It was all part of screen-acting and make-up, being able to read expressions as clearly as possible, etc.

[Severen]

1. Akira.
2. Ghost in The Shell.
3. Spirited Away.
4. The Nightmare Before Christmas.
5. Ratatoullie.
6. Grave of the Fireflies.
7. Princess Mononoke.
8. Pinocchio.
9. My Neighbor Totoro.
10. Toy Story Trilogy.
11. How to Train Your Dragon.
12. Kung Fu Panda.
13. Beauty and The Beast.
14. Aladdin.
15. Bambi.
16. Castle in The Sky.
17. Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind.
18. Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
19. Kiki's Delivery Service.
20. Wall-E.
21. Fantasia.
22. Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust.
23. The Iron Giant.
24. A Bug's Life.
25. Monsters Inc.
26. Ponyo.
27. American Pop.
28. Pom Poko.
29. The Incredibles.
30. Watership Down.
31. Pink Floyd The Wall.
32. The Fantastic Mr. Fox.
33. The Emperor's New Groove.
34. Coraline.
35. Mary and Max.
36. Wallace and Gromit in Curse Of the Were Rabbit.
37. Up.
38. The Simpsons Movie.
39. Snow White.
40. The Hunchback of Nortre Dame.
41. Mulan.
42. Robin Hood.
43. Porco Russo.
44. Ninja Scroll.
45. Vampire Hunter D.
46. Paprika.
47. Howl's Moving Castle.
48. The Jungle Book.
49. The Flight of Dragons.
50. The Secret of NIMH.
51. A Boy Named Charlie Brown.
52. Snoopy Come Home.
53. The Phantom Tollbooth.
54. Wizards.
55. Perfect Blue.
56. Finding Nemo.
57. Wicked City.
58. Fist of the North Star.
59. Transformers The Movie.
60. Robot Carnival.
61. A Goofy Movie.
62. The Secret of Kellis.
63. South Park Bigger Longer and Uncut.
64. Millenium Actress.
65. 101 Dalmations.
66. The Aristocats.
67. Waltz with Bashir.
68. Fantastic Planet.
69. Lightyears (aka Gandahar).
70. Starchaser Legend of Orin.
71. Sword in The Stone.
72. Shrek 2.
73. Antz.
74. Golgo 13 The Professional.
75. Happy Feet.
76. The Corpse Bride.
77. Monster House.
78. James and The Giant Peach.
79. The Princess and The Frog.
80. Lilo and Stitch.
81. Beowulf.
82. Fritz The Cat.
83. Beavis and Butt-Head Do America.
84. Batman Mask of the Phantasm.
85. Fire and Ice.
86. The Little Mermaid.
87. Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs.
88. Persopolis.
89. The Girl who Lept Through Time.
90. Rock and Rule.
91. Despicable Me.
92. Heavy Metal.
93. Urotsukidoji Legend of the Overfiend.
94. Project A-Ko.
95. The Last Unicorn.
96. Tangled. (Rapunzel is hot)
97. Castle of Cogliostro.
98. Ferngully The Last Rainforest.
99. Hey Good Lookin'.
100. Ice Age.
101. Waking Life.

[Ben]

Didn't we have a list thread? Dan?